Fox 720p vs. ABC 720p

[dlhoppe]

foxeng,

Can you share any more technical info as to exactly what needs "tweaked"?  We have a number of people here who claim camera work is a big part of the issue, yet you just indicated that it "has little to do with camera work". Also, if the "many factors" are all LA network specific, then why would we be getting different PQ from different local stations? That seems contradictory.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

[foxeng]

Originally posted by dlhoppe
foxeng,

Can you share any more technical info as to exactly what needs "tweaked"?  We have a number of people here who claim camera work is a big part of the issue, yet you just indicated that it "has little to do with camera work". Also, if the "many factors" are all LA network specific, then why would we be getting different PQ from different local stations? That seems contradictory.

Thanks for any info you can provide.

It has to do with how the network is sending the feeds to the stations. The distribution network is not at its projected bitrate yet and when the games are shown, FOX has to use more resources than will be required in a couple of months.

I can tell you that the bitrate on all games have gone up some (some more than others) every week so far and as things are moved around and other things that are programmed are phased out, the bitrate will continue to increase. It will only get better from here on out.

[foxeng]

Here is what is happening.

A digital satelite link works the same way an OTA digital station works. You have a data stream and within that datastream you will have "subchannels." All networks do this, not just FOX.

FOX runs SD subchannels and HD subchannels over several different transponders on two different birds. With 6 games a week and different stations carrying different games, (total of 12 subchannels) the subchannels are stat muxed and the current prime time (7) streams are currently not enough to carry all the needed bandwidth so FOX has to crank up more transponder space and spread it out until they can get all the needed bandwidth cleared out to deliever the programs the way the system is designed. Each week more and more bandwidth is freed up and that goes to the network distribution system.

Now, if there is sloppy camera work, yes it can effect PQ, but what people are seeing, camera work isn't the problem.

[dlhoppe]

So the PQ issues we are seeing mostly come down to higher compression because of the bandwidth shortage?  

That makes sense and would explain the lack of clarity in the small details of the picture. Especially when the cameras are zoomed out.


Thanks for the info foxeng.

[borghe]

this isn't entirely the case though. an example. the flickering color on tony dunge(sp?) last week. That wasn't compression or any such thing. That was an optical problem at the camera. Or substantial edge enhancement on wide and high crowd shots. Over exposure when the venting holes on the jersey bleed out.

I never said it was camera problems (except for the color flickering). I said it was cameraWORK.

And this isn't anything new. For years people have been complaining about various games looking awful, and they weren't in HD or different resolutions then.

I'm not saying Fox doesn't have some stuff to work out, but again, this crap that one is better than the other when it comes to 720-p vs. 1080i is just that, crap. They are effectively capable of the same picture to our eyes.. at that point it comes down to camerawork, or as foxeng pointed out in this age of digitally comrpessed video, compression and transmission.

I never meant to imply that it was all camerawork, just that it had not one single solitary thing to do with the resolution for or CBS are broadcasting in.

[mhz40]

Originally posted by foxeng
FOX is still tweeking the system and there are some things that are still being sorted out. FOX's 720p isn't at it's peak yet. The PQ will differ on the same game from station to station depending on MANY factors and all at the network in LA, not with the local FOX station. Many people who have seen the SportsCenter hightlights say that it looks better than the actual broadcasts in some cases. It has little to do with camera work in the big picture.

It might be as long as a couple of months before it is all ironed out. It is getting better every week and that is a good thing.

So Fox is now using HD cameras for all NFL broadcasts?  I remember some posts last year that intimated they Fox was using anamophoric lenses on SD cameras, or something else of that nature.

[tazman]

FOX runs SD subchannels and HD subchannels over several different transponders on two different birds.

C-band or Ku?  Encrypted or not?

[dlhoppe]

borghe,

Your posts pointing out the cause for PQ differences between CBS and Fox being other than resolution are well put and very informative. I think people correlating the differences in picture quality to the differences in resolution is an easy mistake to make (if indeed it is a mistake). Especially when one of the big differences is clarity.

In my earlier posts, when I referred to "PQ", I mostly meant picture clarity. I should have been clearer on that (no pun intended). I never meant to imply the color issues like oversaturation, bleeding, pulsating would be associated with resolution differences. Somehow in this discussion, all the different PQ issues seem to have gotten lumped together into one idea regarding cause. Anyway, for me, clarity is most important. I enjoy seeing the line play during games with the wide angle camera shot. On Fox, it's disappointing because you just can't make out as much detail as you can on CBS. If image detail (clarity) could be improved whether it be with "camera work", bandwidth, edge-enhancement or whatever, I hope they'll spend their time fixing that first. I'd rather have a clear picture with some minor color problems than a muddy picture with perfect color.

[borghe]

I have to STRONGLY contend that Fox is NOT using 100% HD cameras, though in their defense the only camera I continually think is SD is the blimp cam.. there are usually a few other shots that are questionable, but the blimp cam usually looks like widescreen SD.

dlhoppe - cool cool... Looking back at the thread title I don't know where it turned into 1080i vs. 720p also. The good news is that because it obviously has nothing to do with the resolution, it CAN be fixed by fox.

which I have every confidence it will be. CBS' and ABC's first games didn't look to hot either, and both now look outstanding. Fox just has to become more comfortable and experienced with the setup.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Originally posted by foxeng
It will only get better from here on out.

That is excellent news!  Thanks for taking your time to explain what is going on, and how it is being solved.

Starving