Why is CBS WDJT bradcasting on 1.1?

[jgoggan]

Originally posted by borghe
in north america... the standard can very easily handle channel 1..

The "standard" (by what you are referring to -- which is the protocol definition) can actually "easily handle" 1 through 1023.  But that doesn't mean it is acceptable to do so.

it is a guideline for use in north america.

No -- you are WRONG.  WHY do you keep saying that?  It is NOT a "guideline" for the US.  It is the STANDARD for the US.  It is not a list of recommendations for channel assignment -- it is a set of rules for determining which ATSC Digital channel SHALL be used.

but whatever... as I said... you can blame 58 all you want, but I will go and watch 58 on my Hughes E86, as will one of my friends on his DTC-100, and another on his Sony SATHD300, and another on his Samsung SIR-T165, and another on his Mitsubishi Promise Module, and the last friend of mine who has an HD set.. a brand new RCA DLP set that tunes in 58 just fine.

That is fine.  That isn't the point.  I'm saying that even if Dish changed their 811 tomorrow to make it work fine on Channel 1 -- Channel58 would still be WRONG in doing so.

58 may be out of compliance for North America,

Correct -- which should not be acceptable.  What if they just decided to start broadcasting garbage on some competing broadcaster's digital channel??  Would that be acceptable to you?

But again, it seems the 811 is the only box to have a problem with it, past, present, or future...

Really doesn't matter how many boxes have a problem.  Wrong is wrong.  The standard is there for a reason.

Heck -- if they picked Channel 2 or some other "valid" channel that still wasn't the one the standard sets for them -- I'd still be upset about it -- because it still would be unacceptable.

 - John...

[gpflepsen]

Originally posted by borghe
in north america... the standard can very easily handle channel 1.. it is a guideline for use in north america. the append b is solely for north america, as is 69A.

but whatever... as I said... you can blame 58 all you want, but I will go and watch 58 on my Hughes E86, as will one of my friends on his DTC-100, and another on his Sony SATHD300, and another on his Samsung SIR-T165, and another on his Mitsubishi Promise Module, and the last friend of mine who has an HD set.. a brand new RCA DLP set that tunes in 58 just fine.

58 may be out of compliance for North America, but again, it seems the 811 is the only box to have a problem with it, past, present, or future...

done.

borghe, you seem to be blinded a bit by your enthusiasm for CH 58.  I think you are motivated further by a need to bash Dish.  This is just an objective look at this conflict on the 811 receiver.

It is also not healthy to look the other way when some entity is operating outside of their jurisdiction, even if they are "good guys".  I could draw parallels to a mob, but since you're done here, you wouldn't get the chance to read it.

[Jimboy]

quote.
Reason #2....when all is done and said and the upper UHF stations are removed from TV service and put over to wireless service later this decade, 58 will no longer be a TV channel, so they would have to rebrand their channel to 46 (which is their current digital allocation).

After years of effort to brand the analog station "CBS58" why change to 46 if the current ATSC spec allows for digital channels 2 through 99?  What's wrong with 58-1?
Channel 1-1 seems like a marketing ploy to me. Lets ask all of the stations in town to switch to 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1....etc.
so we don't have to take such a big jump when changing channels.

[SRW1000]

Originally posted by borghe
I will go and watch 58 on my Hughes E86, as will one of my friends on his DTC-100, and another on his Sony SATHD300, and another on his Samsung SIR-T165, and another on his Mitsubishi Promise Module, and the last friend of mine who has an HD set.. a brand new RCA DLP set that tunes in 58 just fine.
 

Uh, you're not watching 58, your watching 1-1, which is really the heart of the matter.  Channel 58 should be broadcasting as channel 58.  Yes, someday their analog signal will go away, and there will be no more channel 58. . . or analog channel 4, 6, 12, etc.  They're all going away.  That's the whole point of digital.  But, they are still supposed to keep their old analog channel number.

This was done to benefit both the stations and the viewers.  Who wants to rebrand their entire identification?  Why would they want to confuse their viewers (especially older folks, who are going to have to be dragged into this change, kicking and screaming).

WDJT is wrong.  They shouldn't be broadcasting on channel 1.

Now, on to Dish.  The 811, as released, is a piece of junk.  I've been unhappy with it since day one.  The $149 price sounded good, but it's an example of getting what you pay for.  Dish should have realized that some scofflaw stations are staking an unjustified claim on channel one, and they should have allowed it to be used as a channel instead of assigning it to the rear inputs.

But, that doesn't mean that 58 isn't wrong also.

Why does it have to be one or the other - clearly they can both be wrong.  Yes, 58 has been admirable for their adoption to HDTV (although I'd like to see a higher power signal and less multi-casting - but I digress), but that doesn't mean that everything they do is OK.  They are clearly wrong in this case.

I'd really like to see a response from Jim Hall on this, but he seens to be ignoring this thread.

Scott

[gpflepsen]

For a real world example of why using 1.1 is out of line, check out this thread starting with post 16:  http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2425640#post2425640  

It's not Dish's problem to solve in Milwaukee... or Chicago... or any other place seeing channel 1.1.

[SRW1000]

This may be old news to some of you here, but the following reply is from Sparkman, in my posting for the temporary fix of the 811's 1.1 problem:

I've been in communication with some of the folks @ Weigel Broadcasting. They told me to be on the lookout for changes with the remap to ch 1. Hopefully they will get this changed soon. Weigel also remaps WCIU ch 26 in Chicago to ch1.

Here's a link to the entire post:

Temporary 811 Fix

This shows two things.  First, Weigel is aware that this is a problem.  

Second, it shows that this comment is just not the case:

SRW1000 - 58 has done nothing wrong.. as for them supposing to be mapped to "their analog channel number", you fail to mention that their analog channel number will be released once all frequencies above channel 55 are reclaimed for other uses later this decade. Channel 58 won't be an option within the decade. So they decided to move elsewhere... Now if you had a choice to move, anywhere to move, where would it be?

If this was the true reason 58 chose 1.1, it certainly wouldn't explain why Weigel chose to do the same thing for WCIU.

I hope that Sparksman's contacts are correct, and that Weigel starts broadcasting on their assigned channel numbers.  I also hope that Dish issues a software upgrade to correct their misunderstanding of the marketplace (and fix all the other technical issues).

It'll be interesting to see which of them will be the first to step up to the plate for their customers.

Scott

[GS kid]

Well to start this off. It was said that 58 has been broadcasting 1-1 for 2 years and nobody has complained on here. Better dig into the past threads. Off the top of my head I remember this being a complaint and issue in the past. If memory serves me right, I think it was the Sony Sat-200 ( and 100?!? some early sony model) was having issues with this. Something about they had to type in 1-1 by hand everytime to tune it in and couldn't just use channel up/down. That it would skip the channel or it wouldn't appear in the channel line up at all.
I had the RCA DTC-100 built-in my last tv (the Proscan 38000.Same as the RCA 38310 38-inch tube. Mine died like alot of peoples. Got a store credit and got my Sony 34xbr800) and now I have the Samsung Sir-ts160. I got 1-1 no problem on either of them. Even though it's been 2 years of no problems, I have NEVER liked it being 1-1! I have made this quite clear in past threads, as have many others.
The upper REAL channels will be sold off. You can make your VIRTUAL channels in the high range. Stations have always hated when  cable or sat. companies force their channel on to one that isn't the same number as their OTA one. I would think CBS 58 would rather have the channel number 58-1 since that's the brand/channel number that they have spent years & money burning into consumers brains. Kinda stupid.
I have been quite happy overall with Jim Hall and 58 for working with us like they have. I have to give the kudos when deserved.I'm really only waiting for full-power at this point. Changing it to 58-1 would be second on my list. Although I haven't read the history as to why.... TVs didn't have a channel 1 for a reason ya know! Seems kinda like FCC or NTSC wanted it that way and still would like it that way.
Dish is to blame for making a STB that doesn't allow 1-1. Yes 58 shouldn't have used it, but everyone else made STBs that could do it with no problems or extra cost. It's a very simple software issue to include it and should have been easy to fix.

[Joseph S]

It was said that 58 has been broadcasting 1-1 for 2 years and nobody has complained on here.

Not true.

This has been a major issue for HiPix owners as well since day one. In fact, I had to plead with the former AVS HiPix Opensource team to add channel 1 to their code so I could watch Channel 58 which they did before disbanding.

[jgoggan]

Just to follow up on this... I got an email back from ATSC today. I had written and asked them about whether or not using Channel 1 was proper (along with my opinion from reading their documents that it absolutely was not proper) and, if it was not proper, if anything could be done about it (i.e. forcing broadcasters to correct their error). Here is what they said (my emphasis added so that some people here clearly see it):

"Thanks for your note. You are correct with regard to Channel 1. It is absolutely contrary to the mandatory requirements in PSIP for the U.S. per A/65B. No broadcaster that uses Channel 1 should expect a receiver to tune it. However, as A/65 is a voluntary standard, there is no enforcement beyond those willing to do the right thing.

There is, as you may know, an effort to have the FCC write A/65 compliance into the Rules. If that happens, such problems could be addressed. For now, however, beyond being disappointed with the Channel 1 situation, there is not much that can be done about it."

So, we were correct -- those are "mandatory requirements" for the US in A/65B. They shouldn't be using Channel 1 -- and shouldn't be expecting any US receiver to tune in Channel 1.

The problem is that there is nothing backing those requirements -- no enforcement is possible at this point. Which, just seems crazy to me. The FCC shouldn't have been licensing digital channels at all if such compliance requirements were not written into the rules to begin with. Hopefully, the effort to have A/65 written into the rules will work out...

In any case, Channel58 is in the wrong on this.  Period.  Granted, there is no enforcement body (yet) to force any changes -- but there shouldn't HAVE to be.  They've purposely gone against the ATSC's standard -- and the ATSC clearly does not think it appropriate.

Again, hopefully the FCC will make the standards enforcable...

 - John...

[crumb snatcher]

JGoggan & JPFlepson,

You guys rock!!! That's exactly the kind of hard evidence and correct interpretation of the ATSC documents that I was looking for. I didn't like the fact that people in this forum were making rash accusations and misinterpretating the ATSC documents. Essentially they were sticking up for CBS 58 because "58 has been one of a few leaders in this market for HDTV. They were one of the few stations who actually had their signal up on May 1, 2002. They have been an active member on these boards and provided communication on happenings without any obligation to do so. They not only provide an HD signal but, to the chagrin of some, but also provide extended services in the form of two additional channels that may not be available to some otherwise. And to mention it again, there level of communication within this community has been exemplary, matched by only a few others from various stations." Just because 58 was one of the first stations to broadcast in HD in the Milwaukee area still doesn't give them any permission or rights to broadcast on channel 1.1. borghe's stance on the issue is clouded by his misinterpretation of the ATSC documents and his personal favortism for CBS 58.  

I've learned a great deal from both your insightful interpretation of the ATSC documents.  Now I can put to rest this whole debate about who is at fault with the Channel 1.1. It's unfortunate that the FCC doesn't regulate or police this kind of practice by broadcasters nationwide. It's the self-fish broadcasters whose whole intentions are to be channel 1 on the program guide that make it harder for a minority of people, who own receivers that can't tune channel 1, to watch the FREE HD OTA programming that is available. To top it off, the ignorant majority of people who stand by those broadcasters side in pointing the finger back at the manufacturers of the receivers.  I could only hope that the FCC will soon enforce the ATSC rules on those who choose to broadcast on channel 1.1 because the broadcasters certainly aren't going to budge anytime soon.

Oh and by the way Borghe, if I had my Hitachi 50v500 and 811 Dish receiver 2 years ago......I'm sure you would've heard about this very same complaint.  Can't complain about something you don't know even exists???

[jgoggan]

Indeed.  However, I want to restate some of my views just so they aren't taken wrong...

1. I think Channel58 is doing a great job with HD.  They do deserve credit for being early adopters and broadcasting HDTV.  I don't mean anything against Channel58 -- except that I think someone there has made a very poor choice about the decision to broadcast (and continuing to broadcast after they know it isn't appropriate) on digital channel 1.  They should change.

2. I think that, even though there shouldn't be anything on channel 1 in the USA, that Dish should still change their unit -- simply because it is going to be an ongoing issue with stubborn/incorrect stations such as this.

So, again, I don't think it is Dish's fault -- but I think that both sides need to correct the problem just to prevent future additional problems regardless of who is actually "right."

 - John...

[crumb snatcher]

The whole intention of this thread was never to bash WDJT 58, but rather to inquire if their usage of channel 1.1 had received complaints from local viewers and was it against ATSC guidlines.  There's no doubt in my mind that they are one of the leaders in this market for broadcasting OTA HD programming.  And YES, they did a GREAT job with the SUper Bowl along with all their Primetime CBS programming.  Heck, my brother was drunk as hell, but still managed to notice and even complimented on how clear and smooth the HD super bowl looked on my Hitachi 50v500.

Regardless of the excellent job WDJT 58 does with HD OTA transmission, fact is their decision to use channel 1.1 is still wrong and against ATSC guidelines, and most of all, hurting it's viewership......and that was the whole basis for this debate.  I was just trying to use this forum as a way to voice my frustrations and concerns to WDJT 58.  I wanted to see documentation showing that WDJT was wrong in choosing to use channel 1.1 instead of people defending WDJT 58 because they could tune channel 1.1 on their Sony or Samsung receivers.  In the end, documentation does show that WDJT58 is wrong.  The email from ATSC as posted above affirms the fact that WDJT is at fault and is screwing people over.  In the end, the people who were wrong still can't accept the fact that they are wrong.  The following quote goes to show you who really is the snob here.....Borghe wrote "anyway, I am back off to watch 1.1... I am sorry you can't... but I would strongly suggest looking at who is to blame... the company renowned for releasing buggy broken hardware, or the one who has virtually bent over backwards for the last two years to work with and please a relatively niche section of their viewing community"

Still waiting  for Mr. Jim Hall to respond to all that has been talked about in this thread?  If WDJT 58 was as active in this forum as Borghe says they are, then why can't we get a respond from someone related to WDJT58?  Where's the love  I hear so much about?

[easylistener]

I know this is about 1.1, but my Hughes receiver plays hd58 on 1.1, 58-1, 58-2, and 58-3.  Why is this.

[Gregg Lengling]

If you Hughes receiver is like my Sony, probably because it is receiving program guide information directly from the satellite and not from the terrestial stations.  You probably only have guide info on the 58- stations and no info available on the 1- stations.  However it may display it but my receiver actually only works on the 1- stations because the scan causes the digital remap to point at that location and doesn't know where to look on the 58- stations and gives a no-signal indication.

[Gregg Lengling]

THIS WILL BE THE LAST POST ON THIS THREAD AS I THINK IT EXHAUSTED.

Nothing is going to change at this time as the PSIP rules are not enforceable and the OWNERSHIP of channel 58 WDJT has made the decision to use the remap to channel 1.  As far as the DISH saga goes, hopefully they will offer a software upgrade to those affected.

Anyhow I think we can stop beating a dead horse as the subject is depleted.

This thread is now closed! (Any attempt to reopen it other than quick explainations to affected viewers will be deleted.)

The MODERATORS!