46/58 messed up or is it just my new Tivo?

[borghe]

heh.. you know, I really have to pinch myself just to be sure I really am able to record from WDJT. It has been so long (almost five months) that not being able to use any season passes for CBS was just normal.

Note that if anyone from WDJT is reading this, the problem STILL needs to be fixed and each and every HD Tivo user out there who doesn't accept my help still won't be able to record using the standard Tivo interface from your stations. FIX THIS!

Anyway, that's the last you'll hear from me on this subject.

[borghe]

believe it or not, an update...

it has recently been discovered that the channel 58 subchannel shifting problem IS INDEED related to Weigel Broadcasting and their 1-1 mandate. Talking on the Tivo forum, every local DMA that is suffering from this problem is having it occur with a Weigel station.

So Jim Hall, if you are reading this, something your station is sending out in your PSIP data is causing all of your viewers with HD Tivos to not be able to properly record your channel.

I know this mandate comes from Weigel corporate, but first it screwed the Dish 810 people and now it is screwing the HD Tivo people. How many people does 1-1 have to screw before Weigel corporate actually changes it?

[Joeknapp]

I've finally found somebody at DirectTV who (might) escalate this problem to Hughes-Thompson, the manufacturer of the HD DVR sold under the DirectTV brand name. I bought mine from Flanners in Milwaukee. They told me they had 20 of them, and have sold 18 so far. That tells me there will soon be 17 more people having this problem! After looking through the thread at //www.tivocommunity.com, it appears this problem isn't isolated to Milwaukee. There are reports from Chicago, Indianapolis, Phoenix, San Mateo, and several other cities, all reporting the same "channel shift" problem. In my case, 58-1 appears on 58-2, and 58-2 appears on 58-3, which does not match the program guide data. The program guide is correct, the channels are simply in the wrong place. If you run the Scan For New Local HD Stations function, the DVR will actually ADD new channels at 1-1 and 1-2, which are duplicates of 58-2 and 58-3. The problem is that DirectTV doesn't provide program guide data for channel one. I wish they did, because channel 58 actually does try to renumber their channel on HD receivers. On the Sony receiver I had before, 58's HD feeds showed up on 1-1 and 1-2. Why they do this is unknown, and if you ask me, stupid. They advertise their programming on channel 58. Why confuse viewers by moving to another channel? Anyway, the one thing I did get from my chat today with the tier two support guy at DirectTV is that AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE HAVE TO COMPLAIN BEFORE THEY DO ANYTHING. So, if you're having this problem, call DirectTV, punch the buttons to reach tech support, immediately ask for tier two, then tell them you are having the "HD channel-shift problem" and ask them when they expect a software upgrade that will fix the problem. I plan to keep calling back every few days until they do something. If we all do this, they can't continue to ignore us!

[Joeknapp]

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3445&#
http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3445&#
I hit a brick wall tonight. I've been calling DirecTV every day to "report the problem" with CBS 58's program guide data showing up on the wrong channel. As you know, the signal appears on 1-1 (correct place) and 58-2 (incorrect place), but the program guide info is on 58-1. This means you can't use the guide to set up a Seasons Pass for CBS HD programming. Well, tonight I got a tier two tech who told me the problem would never be fixed. I called back and finally (after 90 minutes) got to a tier two supervisor. Once again, this ended with a promise to "escalate" the problem to someone who could fix it. Once again, I doubt this will happen.

So, here's what I'm prepared to do. It's too late to return my DirecTV HD DVR to Flanners for a refund.  I am ready, willing and able to finance a class-action lawsuit against DirecTV, Hughes-Thompson, channel 58, Flanners, and any other company that I can identify as being involved here. Members of the class will be demanding a refund for the DirecTV HD DVR, along with a refund of all fees paid to DirecTV during the time they owned the DVR, plus damages and legal fees. This could result in $$$ coming back to you if you own one of these boxes and you'd like to be included in this action. If you fall into this category, please contact me. My e-mail address is . If I am able to get the lawsuit started, I'll post updates regularly on this forum. I'm also going to try to get information about this to the news media in an effort to pressure these guys into some kind of settlement.

Can you tell that I'm upset about this, or what?

[denno]

is it possible to use this problem as leverage to get the waiver for the CBS national feed?

[borghe]

I am sorry to hear you guys are frustrated with this.. I understand completely. I dealt with it for 4 months before finally taking matters into my own hands..

As for the solution, there isn't one aside from hacking your boxes. Hopefully when CBS58 is forced to comply with their PIDS that will fix the problem for you... In the meantime you either have to live with it or mod your boxes. Sorry. Really, I am.

I can say modding a HR10-250 takes about only 15-30 minutes if you are at all familiar with Linux/DOS or any command line OS really. My instructions for doing the subchannel fix are posted in here I believe and for 58 I can even go so far as giving you text to copy and paste into a telnet session.

My Tivo crashed recently (ribbon cable went bad) and for me to restore from backup and remod the thing took about 20 minutes, and that is including disassembly AND restoring from backup...

anyway, I don't know what else to say other than I sympathize with your situation.. although I didn't have it nearly as bad as you guys because I fixed mine right at the start of the fall season.

[Joeknapp]

I give up, and I'm ready to hack my HD TiVo so I can get it to record shows on CBS 58. How do I do this, exactly? Is someone willing to come out to my house and do this for me?

I don't know who's at fault in all this, really. Channel 58 is sure it's a DirecTV problem. DirecTV either ignores the problem, or tries to blame it on Channel 58, and sometimes even on ME!  

If you are thinking about getting DirecTV and/or a DirecTV HD TiVo -- I have one word of advice for you: DON'T.

DirecTV has the WORST customer service in the world. If you get an "answer" from their techs, you can hang up, call right back, and get a different answer from another tech. They have absolutely NO problem telling you lies, too. I hate that more than anything else.

The Time-Warner HD DVR box is no match for TiVo in ease of use, and it does strange things that you cannot control. It can delete programs without warning, and you can create two or more "Seasons Passes" for the exact same show. Their tech support isn't great either, but it's FAR better than DirecTV. Even the voice menus you get when you call are less complicated (and I hate those things with a passion).

Why is it that when you call DirecTV for support you are asked to type in your 10 digit phone number before you can speak to a human -- but, once you get a human on the phone, they always start by asking you for your phone number??

I hope DirecTV goes dark. They truly suck.

[borghe]

ok, let me go into this a little more.

first, you have to understand the crux of the DirecTV/TiVo relationship. DirecTV provides tech support of the Tivo, but they don't do any of the actual fixing, TiVo does this. So DirecTV tech support can only go so far before they have to hand the problem off to TiVo. However, TiVo can't release any code without DirecTV's approval (things used to be a lot different before DirecTV was as heavily involved as they are now, with code being pushed out 2-5 times within 2 months).

I realize it doesn't make any of those having problems feel any better, but you have to understand the complication of the situation.

As another example, I still see people complaining about various annoyances and glitches on the SA8000HD, yet TWC is basically powerless to do anything about it. They have to wait for SA to release software updates for the box.

Now onto CBS58, I am a little frustrated that it seems nothing I said was heard. CBS58 is in DIRECT NON-COMPLIANCE with North American ATSC standards. Rag on DirecTV or TiVo all you want but at the end of the day CBS58's stuff is broke and they refuse (from corporate mandate) to fix it. Of course the FCC isn't giving them an option and by May (I believe) they are required to have it fixed and comply.

So, could DirecTV have come up with a workaround in the meantime to appease those of us in Weigel areas to get our channels correctly? Maybe. But could that have caused problems with other aspects of the unit? Possibly. We don't know. What we DO KNOW is that if CBS58 wasn't on 1-1 and was sending out COMPLIANT AND CORRECT PSIP data, that we wouldn't have this problem.

So in response to your recommendation, I have this to say. DirecTV as a service and the Tivo unit as a product are both wonderful. It is a shame that CBS58 and Weigel Broadcasting feels that they do not have to comply with ATSC standards and thus break certain boxes (the Tivo isn't the only box that has had issues with weigel's PSIP). However I feel it is clear where that responsibility lay. While one can claim the fact that most other boxes work with 58-1 correctly, you could make the same claim that EVERY box (not just most) work with EVERY OTHER channel correctly.

Anyway, if you can wait it out, when weigel is forced to comply, this will all be water under the bridge. I unfortunately do not mod other people's TiVos anymore but you can check //www.dealdatabase.com/forum for information on how to mod it yourself or possibly find other people who are willing to do it for you, or you can got to //www.ptvupgrade.com and buy drive kits that are already modded. If any of you decide to mod your unit I can copy and paste my post from tivocommunity.com on how to fix 58-1 and 58-2. Once the unit is modded fixing the two channels takes about 10 seconds, and that is including logging into the unit.

And for the record I have emailed CBS58 on the problem numerous times, including at least one time after I fixed my unit. I only ever received one response on the subject and that was "We will look into it." I even at the time had a name of an engineer at TiVo who was willing to work with CBS58 on fixing the problem but have since lost the name... Though if any of you have contacts in Tivo, TiVo is aware of what the problem is and can work with the station to fix it. It is PSIP related and IIRC basically occurs when the station is PSIP mapping the actual channel to a different channel than what DirecTV is mapping to (i.e. DirecTV is mapping channel 46 to 58 while 58 is mapping 46 to 1)

[mhz40]

WDJT plans on remapping PSIP & programs on 1/31.  You waited this long, I would hold off until Feb to see what happens.  Your mapping issues may disappear.

[borghe]

thank you mhz40 for this information. and I agree completely on holding off (unless you wanted the other benefits from modding your tivo).

you TWC guys aren't half bad sometimes

j/k

[Joeknapp]

Thanks for the info, everyone.  I've waited this long, I guess a couple more weeks won't hurt. If 58 is going to fix their compliance problem, maybe that will fix the problem. Last time I spoke with their Chief Engineer, however, he claimed there was absolutely nothing wrong with their equipment, settings, whatever. I wonder if he's changed his mind about that now?  Anyway, next step might be to contact the FCC to have them check into channel 58 to see if they're in compliance. I'll call them on February 2nd -- if I still can't record JAG by then.

[borghe]

Well, good news and bad news. Goood news is 58 finally stopped using 1-1 and 1-2 and are now 58-1 and 58-2. The bad news is that as far as I can tell the issue with the Tivo still exists. I am not however confident that CBS58 actually fixed the issue at hand. See, when you check the signal strength on 46, it still lists channel 58-2 as the primary channel. Channel 8 however lists 10-1 as the first channel. Also it has been confirmed that their PID data is still not compliant (per the thread in Technical).

[Joeknapp]

It's working!  Channel 58-1 is now CBS 58 on my TiVo, and 58-2 is also correct. Now I wish I knew for sure who really fixed this problem -- because I'm still not sure. I wish people would take responsibility for their failures, but that seems to be out of style these days.  DirecTV insisted it was channel 58's fault, and channel 58 insisted it was DirecTV's fault. I haven't tried calling them yet to see if they'll admit what really happened. But, I'm willing to just assume that it was channel 58's fault all along. They did make some kind of change on January 31st, and when they did the problem was solved. I suppose that all I care about is that I can now record JAG, Listen Up, Raymond, and all the CSI flavors in beautiful HDTV (and I can finally return my TW HD DVR to the cable company).

[borghe]

there has not been a software update to Tivo.....

if that tells you anything.

though it was just fixed today. because this morning my Tivo was working (I have checked every day since the 30th) and calling home now it isn't (have to set it back).

Grats to 58 for finally fixing it. Enjoy HD Tivo owners.. our boxes are now 100% perfect!!

[kjnorman]

Grats to 58 for finally fixing it. Enjoy HD Tivo owners.. our boxes are now 100% perfect!!

Until Directv go to Mpeg4 compression.  I am really wanting to get the HD Tivo, now that CBS has fixed their channel mapping, but I think it will be hard to justify $600-700 to my wife if the box will not record the NH Nationals when they are MP4.  I know it should still do the locals but its going to be a hard sell and my brain keeps on telling me that I have waited this long, what is 10(?) more months to wait for the Directv HMC....