Antenna Upgrade: Does this sound right?

[Brian]

Hi Everyone,

I live in a 14-story condo building on Milwaukee's east side.  I don't have cable/satellite, so I get reception by plugging my TV into a coaxial jack that is connected to an antenna on my building's roof.   Right now, I am able to tune in channels 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, and 12.  Channels 36 and 41 are very fuzzy and hardly viewable.

I recently purchased a digital converter box to see how it would work with my building's antenna.  Unfortunately, the box displayed some text saying that the antenna signal isn't strong enough.  This was a surprise because I thought you could use the same antenna with the digital conversion box.  

My building's condo board (of which I am not a member) has been investigating the switch to digital.  Today, I received the latest meeting minutes, and here's what they said:

"Our current system is too old to support the digital change.  The cost of replacement is basically $1,300 per channel and about $2,000 in labor.  The total bill is $13,700.  The motion was made and seconded to approve the project.  We will ask if this upgrade will also support HD Radio."

I don't know anything, but this seems like a lot of money for an antenna upgrade.  Obviously, something needs to be done to boost the signal.  However, the "per channel" price quote seems odd.  

I would appreciate any advice -- does this all seem legit and reasonable?

Thank you very much for your time and attention.

Brian

[SRW1000]

That sounds nuts.

Granted, I haven't had any experience in that kind of a distribution system, but the pricing scheme sounds odd.  Why would it be per channel?  Per condo outlet would make sense, if they were replacing all of the internal wiring, but per broadcast channel?

The other thing that strikes me is that you can get  local, analog signals without a problem, but not UHF.  Most of the digital signals are broadcast in the UHF frequency range, so it wouldn't be surprising if there was some kind of problem with the UHF portion of the current antenna system.

Here's a test:  see if you can tune to digital 10.1 (broadcasting on 8.1) using the current antenna.  If you can, fixing the UHF portion of the antenna might just solve the problem.

One of the posters here, bradsmainsite, has experience with just this sort of antenna situation.  Maybe he'll see this post and offer some suggestions or you could also send him a private message.

By chance, is anyone on the condo board related-to or affiliated-with the company doing the work?  Just asking.  It wouldn't really be a bad idea to get a second estimate.  

Until the work is done, you could also try an internal digital antenna.  As close as you are, that might be all you need.

Welcome to the forum,

Scott

[troyriley]

I second the opinion that it sounds nuts. Being on the east side, just a few miles from the transmitters, reception shouldn't be any problem. I would suggest simple rabbit ears in your condo. It seems your building's antenna system works well with VHF, but is terrible with UHF. One possibility is that it's an VHF antenna on the roof. However, being so close to the transmitters, even an antenna designed for VHF will still receive UHF. Another possibility is that the cables in your building are poor, or there are so many splitters going to each unit that the signal that was once strong, has lost significant strength with all of that splitting. The antenna system may not have adequate amplification to overcome all the splitting. UHF signals are much higher frequency, and quickly lose strength with long cable runs and splitting. Like Scott mentioned, all stations but channel WMVS-DT have their digital signal on the UHF band, explaining your difficulty with the converter box.

As I mentioned before, rabbit ears or some other type of indoor antenna might be your best option. Instead of sharing one inadequate antenna system with the other units in your building, get your own signal and go directly to your own TV. Rarely would I recommend rabbit ears, but I wouldn't think you would have any problem from the east side.

[Brian]

Thank you very much for your advice, Scott & Troyriley!  

When I bought the digital converter a few months ago, I plugged it in and it said "weak signal."  Because there was talk in our building about having to upgrade our antenna system, I just thought, "yeah, we need the upgrade."  I put the box away and didn't think anything more about it...until I received the condo board minutes and posted my message here.

After reading your posts today, I plugged in the converter box again.  It still said "weak signal."  This time, I took the additional step of entering 8.1 on the remote as you suggested.  It tuned in perfectly!  I proceeded to go through all of the other channels, and most of them worked!  This is crazy -- I wonder if my condo board had the same experience and didn't bother to start entering the individual channels.  

Of course, there are still some channels that I'm not getting: 18.1, 30.1, 36.anything, 49.1, and 63.1.  Does this make sense with the weak UHF theory?  

Rabbit ear antennae don't work at all in my building, so I definitely need to connect to the rooftop antenna.  And, it also seems that a signal boost is needed.  However, should this really cost our building $13,700?  Isn't there some couple-hundred-dollar box we could buy at RadioShack?

Thank you again for the great advice!

Brian

[SRW1000]

Glad to hear that you've had some success.  At this point, you're past any help that I can offer you, but it sure does seem like there are some alternative solutions.  Radio Shack may not be the answer, but there are companies out there that do this professionally.  It may only involve replacing or re-aiming the antenna, or it might require a total replacement of the antenna system and/or wiring.

But, I do think that your fellow owners would benefit from a couple of other estimates.  The good news is that they see a need for OTA antenna feeds.  That's a major battle right there.  They should just be a little more careful with how the money is being spent.  $14K seems very steep.

Scott

[Brian]

Okay -- thank you again.  I've shared your thoughts with one of our board members.  It's always good to ask questions about new technology, and I appreciate your advice.  Maybe we'll figure out a way to save some money.

All the best,
Brian

[Jimboy]

Based on the cost involved it looks like they are doing the following.......


Passing channels 4, 6 10, 12.
Then, using demodulators (receivers) to receive some of the other local channels and then re-modulate them the unused analog channels in the VHF spectrum.

What is on channels 2, 5 , & 7?

If this is what they are doing it's unlikely that any UHF signals are getting to your apartment since the system they provide may only reside on VHF. And since most of the OTA digital signal are on UHF (except for 10-1 on channel you won't receive squat with their system.

Why don't they replace their analog receivers with CECB converter boxes and send you the same (but digital version) signals on the same channels? At about $60 per channel (unless you can get converter coupons) it's a far cry from what they are proposing.

:rolleyes:

[Brian]

Hi Jimboy,

Thank you for your reply.  Right now, they haven't done anything to upgrade our system.  I found out today that I can get all of the digital signals except for 18.1, 30.1, 36.anything, 49.1, and 63.1.  With the standard analog hookup, I can tune in everything but channels 36 and 41.  The channels 2, 5, and 7 that I referred to are the analog UPN, CBS-58, and CW.  

If they just replace the analog receivers with digital boxes, don't they still need something to boost the UHF signals?  Please forgive me if I don't fully understand your suggestion.  I definitely appreciate your help.

All the best,
Brian

[Jimboy]

Without knowing the particulars of the current system it hard for me to say what they need. It looks, smells, sounds like what the hospitals in the area use to do a long time ago. Provide all analog VHF channels (4-6-10-12) and add in a few UHF channels on VHF channels 2-5-7-11. This way the old tv's in the patients rooms wouldn't need  to tune to any UHF channels. Now they use cable tv.

With all of the analog stations ending on Feb 17th they need to do something. Either upgrade the antenna system or install TWC - Dish - or DirectTV

[ArgMeMatey]

I used to manage MATV for highrises.  But it's been a few years.  

The issue with VHF was always ghosting due to leakage into the cables.  If your building is wired with RG-59 and couplers that are limited bandwidth, your costs could be much higher because in order to carry the UHF signals well, you would have to rebuild the system.  

But presumably your condo board was smart enough to get some competitive bids and somebody knows what type of cable was used and the splitter and amp specs currently in place.  

Ghosting is a non-issue with digital, so it could actually be easier to build a good system if your cable plant can handle UHF frequencies.  

Is your condo board required to share with you the specifications? If so I would ask for a copy and see if they are using any channel converters, or just amps and combiners.  I am not sure if channel conversion is compatible with ATSC virtual channel numbering.

[bradsmainsite]

As Jimboy noted you have a converted system using VHF modulated channels and converted UHF channels to VHF channles.  Have lots of experience with these systems and have built and designed over 40 of these sytems, and currently have redone the 54 channel system at Concordia University.

Have another suggestion instead of going the route you received the quote on as I doubt you will be able to receive HD with this system.  You can PM me as Scott has suggested and I can give you some other options as well which may be cheaper and make more sense for your association.

Brad

[AA9VI]

I'll do the install for $10,000.  What a deal!  Heck, I'll even throw in the coax connectors for that "value" price.


Seriously,
Why isn't it the renters' responsibilities to get a converter box?  You can apply to get 2 $40 coupons per residence.  The only items that should need replacing are possibly antennas, some coax perhaps, and maybe some amplifiers.  Whoever sold you this bill of goods is doing things the hard way costing you all more than should be allowed by ethics..

[Brian]

We have purchased converter boxes.  However, as one of my posts stated, only some of the digital channels come in on my TV.  I have since learned that the signal strength varies from unit to unit within my condo building.  Some people in my building cannot receive any channels with the converter.

Brian

I'll do the install for $10,000.  What a deal!  Heck, I'll even throw in the coax connectors for that "value" price.


Seriously,
Why isn't it the renters' responsibilities to get a converter box?  You can apply to get 2 $40 coupons per residence.  The only items that should need replacing are possibly antennas, some coax perhaps, and maybe some amplifiers.  Whoever sold you this bill of goods is doing things the hard way costing you all more than should be allowed by ethics..