Channel 4.1 signal strength?

[dave]

I recently installed a Channel Master 4228 and a 7777 preamp for my local channels.  I feed the signal into my Dish Vip222 and into my  Samsung LCD TV.  Here's my problem.  When I tune to any of the local Milwaukee channels other than 4.1, I show anywhere from 80 to 100 on my signal strength meter through the Dish 222.  I have no problem at all watching those channels.  Murphy must be at work because when I try to watch 4.1, I get a very weak signal (60's at best and usually much lower) and my picture cuts in and out.  I put the antenna signal into the Samsung as it appears to have a little bit better receiver but its still not good enough to maintain a picture.  I'm in Slinger and TVfool shows my distance to be about 26 miles away.  I show channel 4.1 is actually channel 28 so its on the UHF band.  I can't figure out why only 4.1 won't come in but all the others will.  Even 10.1 which is a VHF channel (8)works fine.  Is the signal from WTMJ that much weaker than the rest of them or could it be something else?  It wouldn't be a big deal but my wife would love to watch the Olympics and can't right now.  Any ideas?

[Stanley Kritzik]

I recently installed a Channel Master 4228 and a 7777 preamp for my local channels.  I feed the signal into my Dish Vip222 and into my  Samsung LCD TV.  Here's my problem.  When I tune to any of the local Milwaukee channels other than 4.1, I show anywhere from 80 to 100 on my signal strength meter through the Dish 222.  I have no problem at all watching those channels.  Murphy must be at work because when I try to watch 4.1, I get a very weak signal (60's at best and usually much lower) and my picture cuts in and out.  I put the antenna signal into the Samsung as it appears to have a little bit better receiver but its still not good enough to maintain a picture.  I'm in Slinger and TVfool shows my distance to be about 26 miles away.  I show channel 4.1 is actually channel 28 so its on the UHF band.  I can't figure out why only 4.1 won't come in but all the others will.  Even 10.1 which is a VHF channel (8)works fine.  Is the signal from WTMJ that much weaker than the rest of them or could it be something else?  It wouldn't be a big deal but my wife would love to watch the Olympics and can't right now.  Any ideas?

I get 4 via DirecTV in HD, and it's fine.  4-1 is another story.  The signal is significantly weaker than any of the other channels.  I'm pointed right at the antenna "farm" in the Estabrook Park area -- about 4-5 miles away.  I'm going to "wiggle" my antenna when i get the use of a tall ladder, but it's right between  6-1 and 10-1, as I aim for it.

I have no good explanation, and WTMJ says nothing.

Stan

[Tom Snyder]

And way up here in Jackson, with 40 acres of woods between me and the tower, 4 comes in just fine with my Radio Shack double bowtie indoor antenna. I have DirecTV, but I keep 4-1 in my list of channels when storms knock out my satellite signal so I can watch the weather. 6 and 58 are "iffy"...when it's really windy, the multipath wreaks havoc. 12 and 4 are the only ones who consistently come in strong

18 is another matter... I'm getting zilch, and I'm gonna have to figure that out before the Packer game on Saturday night.

[bradsmainsite]

At only 26 miles and that much gain my guess is you are hammering waaaay to much signal into those poor tuners.

Try removing the preamp to see what happens I would bet you will see an improvement.

[dave]

At only 26 miles and that much gain my guess is you are hammering waaaay to much signal into those poor tuners.

Try removing the preamp to see what happens I would bet you will see an improvement.

I had that thought too but haven't tried it yet.  What doesn't make sense to me is why all the other channels come in so well with great signal strength.  I would think the preamp would affect all of them, not just 4.  I will try it and see what happens.

Thanks for the other replies.

[dave]

Tried disconnecting the preamp.  4 signal strength dropped to 0 and the others all lost about 20 points.  Still puzzled......

[bradsmainsite]

Tried disconnecting the preamp.  4 signal strength dropped to 0 and the others all lost about 20 points.  Still puzzled......

Did you completely remove both  pieces and barrel splice through.  You cannot just unplug it or remove the power supply you must remove the main head amp, or that will make it worse if it is in there with no power.

You also have not stated where it is mounted or how high it is and your general terrain (behind a hill, trees, buildings, etc.).  This info also helps.

[dave]

Did you completely remove both  pieces and barrel splice through.  You cannot just unplug it or remove the power supply you must remove the main head amp, or that will make it worse if it is in there with no power.

You also have not stated where it is mounted or how high it is and your general terrain (behind a hill, trees, buildings, etc.).  This info also helps.

Unplugged the preamp completely.  Ran the coax (RG60) directly from the antenna to the receiver.  Antenna is mounted on the roof on a 5 foot mast pointed directly at the towers using the compass heading from TVfool.  I am down in a slight valley with a few trees directly in front of the antenna.  I realize this isn't ideal but why aren't all the channels weak instead of just 4.1?

[bradsmainsite]

Unplugged the preamp completely.  Ran the coax (RG60) directly from the antenna to the receiver.  Antenna is mounted on the roof on a 5 foot mast pointed directly at the towers using the compass heading from TVfool.  I am down in a slight valley with a few trees directly in front of the antenna.  I realize this isn't ideal but why aren't all the channels weak instead of just 4.1?

4.1 is actually on uhf channel 28.  Try looking at analog ch. 30 to see what the picture quality looks like along with analog ch. 24.  Let me know if they are snowy or if there is ghosting (double image) or some other interference.  This may help in analyzing what may be happening to your digital channel 4.

[Stanley Kritzik]

Unplugged the preamp completely.  Ran the coax (RG60) directly from the antenna to the receiver.  Antenna is mounted on the roof on a 5 foot mast pointed directly at the towers using the compass heading from TVfool.  I am down in a slight valley with a few trees directly in front of the antenna.  I realize this isn't ideal but why aren't all the channels weak instead of just 4.1?

I've got help coming on Wednesday with a tall ladder.  My plan is to loosen the fasteners on my Winegard Square Shooter and do the "wiggles" -- side-to-side and elevation (I'm tilted back about 45 degrees, now).  I'm only 4-5 miles north of Estabrook Park, and 6, 10, 12, and 36 all come in at 85-90%, while 4 is down around 40%, and it varies.  So, we shall see, and I'll report back here when I find something out.  (The % values refer to my DirecTV receiver meter values.)  The low value for CH 4 corresponds to the pixelization I get only on 4-1 and 4-2.  Everything else I receive is 100% solid -- OTA and satellite.

As they say, "Stay Tuned".

Stan

[dave]

4.1 is actually on uhf channel 28.  Try looking at analog ch. 30 to see what the picture quality looks like along with analog ch. 24.  Let me know if they are snowy or if there is ghosting (double image) or some other interference.  This may help in analyzing what may be happening to your digital channel 4.

Channels 24 and 30 (analog) both come in fairly well and are watchable.  I don't see any ghosting or other interference on either of them.  Channel 30 is snowier than 24.

[bradsmainsite]

Channels 24 and 30 (analog) both come in fairly well and are watchable.  I don't see any ghosting or other interference on either of them.  Channel 30 is snowier than 24.

At 26 miles from the transmitters unless your in an rf black hole you should have a snow free picture on all your uhf channels especially with a 4228 antenna.  You didn't say if you were using the preamp for this test.  If you were that is concerning something is not right.

Send me a PM and I will give you my number.  I can take you through some trouble shooting steps.

[AA9VI]

At 26 miles from the transmitters unless your in an rf black hole you should have a snow free picture on all your uhf channels especially with a 4228 antenna.  You didn't say if you were using the preamp for this test.  If you were that is concerning something is not right.

Send me a PM and I will give you my number.  I can take you through some trouble shooting steps.

If removing the preamp is bad...
You might need the preamp, but are getting receiver overload from too powerful of a preamp or the input signal is too strong into the preamp.  This causes the preamp to go into overload saturation (strange mixing of adjacent frequencies, etc.)  . Solution: get a premap with a good front end protection against strong signals.  The Winegard AP8700 does that.  Solidsignal.com has tech specs on it.  Look at the front end overload specs.  Some amps are better than others and you have to be especially careful when using the right amp < 30 mi out.

Also, check your coax lines and connectors.  At 30 mi out, you really shouldn't need the preamp. This assuming you aren't using a coat hanger of an antenna.

[Stanley Kritzik]

I've got help coming on Wednesday with a tall ladder.  My plan is to loosen the fasteners on my Winegard Square Shooter and do the "wiggles" -- side-to-side and elevation (I'm tilted back about 45 degrees, now).  I'm only 4-5 miles north of Estabrook Park, and 6, 10, 12, and 36 all come in at 85-90%, while 4 is down around 40%, and it varies.  So, we shall see, and I'll report back here when I find something out.  (The % values refer to my DirecTV receiver meter values.)  The low value for CH 4 corresponds to the pixelization I get only on 4-1 and 4-2.  Everything else I receive is 100% solid -- OTA and satellite.

As they say, "Stay Tuned".

Stan

So, today being Wednesday, we did our thing, and the results follow.  To first set the scene, I have a Winegard amplified Square Shooter about ten feet in the air, aimed generally at the antenna farm in, and around Estabrook Park -- distance about five miles.  I'm aiming through a well-leafed maple tree which is about 100 feet away from the antenna.  As I started measuring, the face of the antenna was tilted back from the vertical about 30 degrees.

I felt pretty certain I was aimed properly (with 6 and 12 both close to 100%), so I started by increasing and decreasing the tilt.  The more I increased the tilt, the better my results, so I quit the process at about 60 degrees.  The % results on my DirecTV HR21 are as follows:

Channel                  30 Degrees               60 Degrees
 4-1                                   60%                       78%
 6-1                                   99%                      100%
10-1                                  85%                        85%
12-1                                  95%                        95%
18-1                                  60%                        72%
36-1                                  82%                        85%
58-1                                  94%                        95%

It would appear that the flatter to the horizontal I make the antenna lie, the better the results.  I didn't push things further, as I felt that the amount of improvement would be enough; we'll watch some Olympics, and see what happens.  Also, D* is now broadcasting 4-1 from the satellite as "4", so I have backup options.

I don't know why 4-1 is relatively low in any case.  Some of the other channels have whopping tall towers, but i assume TMJ is right in there with power, etc.  Anyway, that's it for now, and I'll mention some results in a few days or a week.

Stan

[Nels Harvey]

So, today being Wednesday, we did our thing, and the results follow.  
 (snip)
 The % results on my DirecTV HR21 are as follows:

Channel                  30 Degrees               60 Degrees
 4-1                                   60%                       78%
 6-1                                   99%                      100%
10-1                                  85%                        85%
12-1                                  95%                        95%
18-1                                  60%                        72%
36-1                                  82%                        85%
58-1                                  94%                        95%

I live just a half mile from Stan, and have a cheezy RS UHF antenna 12 ft up in the air.  My readings on my on my VIP-612 Dish receiver are:

4-1   75-78
6-1   100
10-1   100
12-1  77-80
18-1  87-90
24-1  91-92
30-1  72-75
36-1  91-96
41-1  68-70
55-1  98-100
58-1  84-86
63-1  61-70

The thing to remember here is the readings we receive are not signal strength.  They are signal quality.  The RF levels may be just fine, but the signal level is derived from more than that.  These are digital signals, and are not indicative of how strong the incoming signal is, but rather what the bit rate reflects.

A case in point, where Ch. 4-1 shows 75-78, with 1000 KW, at a height of 1348 ft. above average terrain, lowly 41-1 shows up with 68-70, with it's flea power 300 Watts, at 942 ft. above average terrain.  I'm 7.2 miles from 4-1, and 5.6 miles from 41-1 (Ch. 13).  

I plan to install a CM 4228 soon, but I don't really expect the numbers to show any significant improvement because they are figures of merit, not signal strength.

Nels....