DTV HD programing Vs. Dish, TWC, etc HD programing

[Nakedj1]

I have been exploring my HDTV options between DTV, TWC, and Dish Network. DTV claims to be the only service that provides TRUE HDTV, they claim TWC & Dish are supplying SDTV(Stretched Definition)

Can any one tell me what the difference is between TRUE HDTV and SDTV???

I currently have TWC(Not too happy with them) :bang:  and I'm trying to decide what service to use for my HDTV programming going forward.  

I see Positives and negatives with each service.
Any info/opinions would be appreciated. :wave:

Thanks,

[mrmike]

There's at least three pieces to the HD equation.  Piece 1 is resolution - do the HD channels actually broadcast HD a substantial portion of the time.  Piece2 is bitrate.  How much bandwidth are they using to send the signal - lower bandwidth == more compression artifacts.  Piece 3 is the codec - Everyone is using MPEG2 right now, the sat companies are in the process of changing over to newer codecs so that they can use less bandwidth for equivalent picture quality (See #2).


Every provider does the bandwidth/PQ tradeoff differenlty - and some will change bandwidth allocations for a channel on the fly depending on what they're showing.  The short answer is that it depends on what you're looking for.  All of the providers do provide real HD signals - that is to say 1080i or 720p streams, but they do so at varying qualities.  My personal feeling is that at this time DTV is among the worst PQ wise, but that's a subjective thing.  I know some folks over at AVSForum have done average bitrate measurements over time for various channels on various providers - you may want to do some poking around there.

[kevbeck122]

From what I remember DTV does HD-Lite on most, if not all of their HD channels.  The resolution is something like 1280x1080i.  Dish does full HD on the main HD channels (TNT, HDNet, HBO, etc.), but the Voom channels along with locals are HD-Lite.  10 of the Vooms and all of the locals are MPEG4 I believe.  This information might have changed though.. I haven't really kept up with it in the past couple of months, but that's how it was before.  I'd say go Dish.. more HD programming and better PQ on the HD channels.

[AndrewP]

I have been exploring my HDTV options between DTV, TWC, and Dish Network. DTV claims to be the only service that provides TRUE HDTV, they claim TWC & Dish are supplying SDTV(Stretched Definition)

Can any one tell me what the difference is between TRUE HDTV and SDTV???

I currently have TWC(Not too happy with them) :bang:  and I'm trying to decide what service to use for my HDTV programming going forward.  

I see Positives and negatives with each service.
Any info/opinions would be appreciated. :wave:

Thanks,

Well D* really provides True HD Lite on all HD channels
E* (Dish) has Voom channels and locals (not in Milwaukee yet) in HD Lite but with slightly better resolution (1440X1080) instead of (1280X1080) od D*.
All other E* HD channels are in TRUE Full HD rate and resolution, as released by providers. Total number of HD channels = 29.
Also Dish has already for three months HD DVR Mpeg4 receiver. D* is still testing their Mpeg4 HD DVR.

[gparris]

On my more recent installations where HD delivery is in question (they got a new HDTV, "now what"?), I refer them to Dishnetwork vs. Directv.

This is only when the subject of dish installation is approved by both spouses, of course (unlike mine).
(Then they go a cable-only route for HD delivery). :blush:

Dish offers a decent MPEG4 DVR that some folks really enjoy, you can lease it for what some find reasonable in cost and there is a variety of TRUE HD channels vs. Directv's current offerings. Voom is not as bad, IMO, as some say it is, either.

[Mark Strube]

Well D* really provides True HD Lite on all HD channels
E* (Dish) has Voom channels and locals (not in Milwaukee yet) in HD Lite but with slightly better resolution (1440X1080) instead of (1280X1080) od D*.
All other E* HD channels are in TRUE Full HD rate and resolution, as released by providers. Total number of HD channels = 29.
Also Dish has already for three months HD DVR Mpeg4 receiver. D* is still testing their Mpeg4 HD DVR.

Not quite...

On DishNetwork...

Full HD (1920x1080i mpeg2)
TNT-HD
DiscoveryHD
HDNet
HDNet Movies
UniversalHD
HBO-HD
ShowtimeHD
HGTV-HD

720p HD (1280x720p mpeg2, it is made this size at the source, so Dish is not downrezzing)
ESPN-HD
ESPN2-HD
National Geographic HD

MPEG4 HD-Lite (1440x1080i, doesn't look so good yet since they're working on perfecting this video compressor)
NFL-HD
Starz HD

HDLite (1280x1080i mpeg2, still looks great since the bitrate is pretty high)
all the VOOM channels (Rave, Equator, Gallery, Treasure, Animania, World Cinema, Rush, World Sports, Ultra, Kung Fu, Film Fest, Monster, HDNews, Gameplay, and Family Room)

Personally, for the most HD content, I'd go with DishNetwork. They don't downscale or downrez any HD content, unless it's like that at the source, with 3 exceptions- the VOOM channels, but DishNetwork is the only way to get those channels in the first place; StarzHD & NFL-HD... however I'm confident they will soon perfect the MPEG4 technology so it looks respectable; and the locals are in that same downscaled MPEG4, but I get those with my own antenna anyways (and they're not carrying the Milwaukee locals in HD until later in the year).

As far as I know, DirecTV has NO full HD programming to offer, at all. The only possibilities are the channels that are in 720p at the source, they might leave those untouched. It's kind of humorous, really...

At the source, UniversalHD is 1920x1080i, and the bitrate hangs around 6-12mbps, depending on content (that sounds low, and it does pixelate sometimes, but they have a *very* good encoder). DirecTV's "HDLite" version at 1280x1080i never goes any lower than 12mbps, and sometimes goes above that!! Now how is that saving bandwidth on their satellites? Do they know that if they just left that channel's video alone, they'd be saving bandwidth? Oy vey.

[StarvingForHDTV]

With the fake HD not being 16:9 aspect ratio, do these providers send it out with black bars, or do they crop, stretch, or zoom the images?

[Mark Strube]

It's simply anamorphic, like a DVD would be. (So, stretched vertically.)

[StarvingForHDTV]

If you divide 1920 / 1080 = 1.77777

1280 / 720 = 1.77777

16 / 9 = 1.777777

I think standard definition TV is 640 X 480 which would give us:

640 / 480 = 1.33333

When I show that on my 16:9 TV without sidebars people look either fat or distorted.

1440 / 1080 = 1.33333

That should look about the same distortion wise as SD TV would, except with greater detail.

1280 / 1080 = 1.185185

That format of fake HD should make people look even fatter or more distorted.

Does fake HD or HD-Lite look like a fun house?

[kevbeck122]

I think it looks exactly the same.. just lower picture quality.

[Mark Strube]

That format of fake HD should make people look even fatter or more distorted.

Does fake HD or HD-Lite look like a fun house?

No, that's why I said it's anamorphic like a DVD. Standard def TV is 720x480 (but displayed by your television at the proper aspect equivalent to 640x480), and so are widescreen DVD's. However, most widescreen DVD's AND HDLite are designed for HDTV's... so while a widescreen DVD is 720x480, and HD-Lite is 1280x1080... the picture is SQUEEZED vertically, so when your tv stretches it back out, it fills the frame but it's still the proper aspect ratio.

[StarvingForHDTV]

No, that's why I said it's anamorphic like a DVD. Standard def TV is 720x480 (but displayed by your television at the proper aspect equivalent to 640x480), and so are widescreen DVD's. However, most widescreen DVD's AND HDLite are designed for HDTV's... so while a widescreen DVD is 720x480, and HD-Lite is 1280x1080... the picture is SQUEEZED vertically, so when your tv stretches it back out, it fills the frame but it's still the proper aspect ratio.

Hmmm.  I don't understand what you are saying, but I will take your word that there is no fun house effect.

[TPK]

Hmmm.  I don't understand what you are saying, but I will take your word that there is no fun house effect.

... Pixels aren't always square ...   :p

[Mark Strube]

Here's a very simple explanation of anamorphic video:

http://gregl.net/videophile/anamorphic.htm

Full HD (both 1080i and 720p) is NOT anamorphic, the pixels are filling out the resolution. Anamorphic means it must be stretched some to fill out the resolution, BUT, since it's anamorphic, the only way to see it in the proper aspect ratio is to either stretch it out, or by adding letterboxing on a standard television.

1920x1080 is full HD widescreen, no stretching needed, that comes out as a nice wide picture. 1280x1080 is simply taking 1920x1080 and squeezing it to 1280. So when your HDTV receives a signal like that, it essentially stretches it back to 1920, so it looks exactly the same, except for a little detail loss since it's lower resolution.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Thanks Mark.