March 2006 to be the worst month in Milwaukee HDTV since '02?

[Joseph S]

Well, now that we've lost NBC there isn't a single of the 4 majors locally broadcasting full bandwidth 1920x1080i. CBS will soon end HD transmission as usual to bring us 7 webcams of basketball. ABC is too busy showing Powerball to flip the switch, runs HD-lite 720p along with atrocious upconverts and audio issues. Fox is buggy locally, buggy nationally flipping out of the white bar, no Arrested Development, and also with only 720p.

In Feb/March '02 we had the 2002 Winter Olympics via HDNET on NBC without the "Drama," CBS came online ahead of the deadline and was showing HDNET programming in off hours. NBC at full bandwidth. PBS at full bandwidth. Things were looking up for the 5/02 deadline and now it clearly looks like HD in Milwaukee is on the downswing with zero chances of heading upwards for 10 years or more when maybe there's a switch to H.264 or better. If you live South or West, you have options. If you're in Milwaukee it's not looking good.

[mhz40]

Aieee!!! Get all your money out of stocks too!


Unless/until HD makes more money at 19mb/s than 1 SD and 1 15mb/s HD can, it's gonna stay that way.

[Joseph S]

So you agree it's going to be the worst month? Seems like it.

Mark Cuban has proven full bitrate pays well as does offering your content directly to the viewer. All this downres crap does is move people away from their local affiliates and their sponsors. I'm not shopping at several sponsors specifically because of their involvement in this.

[Gilbert]

Mark Cuban has proven full bitrate pays well as does offering your content directly to the viewer. All this downres crap does is move people away from their local affiliates and their sponsors. I'm not shopping at several sponsors specifically because of their involvement in this.

Mark Cuban found a niche audience of purists. Only you, Joseph, are moving away from local affiliates and sponsors. In Champaign, IL, they are moving away from their digital CBS station because they are at 1 kilowatt, webcam video that makes 58 look utterly HD when they go to 5 subs (and no slam against 58, I'd rather have 5 games in SD than 1 in HD if those were my two options). THAT is a reason to scream. 720p is great when done right. I have seen WISN's upconverted picture...yes, it is somewhat soft, and as for their audio issues...well, send them polite emails when it happens, and about the image quality. It's amazing how
much engineers get done when they are encouraged instead of slammed or run down.

So let me spoil it for you, right here, right now, and make your HD life a miserable, living hell. I promise that it will get "worse" before it gets better. When analog goes away, and as better MPEG2 technology hits the air in another year or two,
then it will improve to what you want it to be. Until then, from someone who grew up on WBBM 2 Chicago "sparklies", more ghosts than a graveyard on many channels, and 10 channels for choice...I say, this is the golden age of TV video and audio quality! Programming quality...the 1950s-1980s beats any "reality"
shows these days. Put those in webcam quality on a subchannel with 500 kb/sec
bandwidth, please!

[Joseph S]

I say, this is the golden age of TV video and audio quality!

I believe the golden age came and went in Milwaukee.

It still exists elsewhere in markets where you have access to multiple affiliates, but here it is gone. March every year from now on is a guaranteed disaster with only 2 days a week of CBS and not a full bitrate ever, unknown weather interuptions, and math fools at WISN and FOX that like to interupt live and national programming to tell you that you lost again at Powerball.

Only you, Joseph, are moving away from local affiliates and sponsors.

Others are and they're switching to national locals or other nearby markets.

In Champaign, IL, they are moving away from their digital CBS station because they are at 1 kilowatt, webcam video that makes 58 look utterly HD when they go to 5 subs (and no slam against 58, I'd rather have 5 games in SD than 1 in HD if those were my two options). THAT is a reason to scream.

It is and that station deserves any complaints they receive. CBS here goes off the air 5+ days of the week with lame trivia and unwatchable games on 7 subchannels when they have programming.

720p is great when done right.

It's OK when done right. It doesn't compare to full bit rate 1080, though.

I have seen WISN's upconverted picture...yes, it is somewhat soft, and as for their audio issues...well, send them polite emails when it happens, and about the image quality.

The upconverts are horrific. The basketball and college football games look worse than the analog station. They know about the audio issues and have for many months. So does Hearst Argyle and they aren't doing anything to solve the issue either. I don't blame the engineers as much as I blame their management.

Put those in webcam quality on a subchannel with 500 kb/sec
bandwidth, please!

Web cams belong on the web, not our airwaves. I'd rather see the gov get a nice paycheck from cell companies using our bandwidth than a bogus weather cam. Journal Broadcasting isn't paying us for the right to waste that bandwidth. They're already blowing our airwaves on PAX, why not stick the web cam on that and not NBC?

[Gilbert]

I believe the golden age came and went in Milwaukee.

It still exists elsewhere in markets where you have access to multiple affiliates, but here it is gone. March every year from now on is a guaranteed disaster with only 2 days a week of CBS and not a full bitrate ever, unknown weather interuptions, and math fools at WISN and FOX that like to interupt live and national programming to tell you that you lost again at Powerball.

 Others are and they're switching to national locals or other nearby markets.

It is and that station deserves any complaints they receive. CBS here goes off the air 5+ days of the week with lame trivia and unwatchable games on 7 subchannels when they have programming.

It's OK when done right. It doesn't compare to full bit rate 1080, though.

The upconverts are horrific. The basketball and college football games look worse than the analog station. They know about the audio issues and have for many months. So does Hearst Argyle and they aren't doing anything to solve the issue either. I don't blame the engineers as much as I blame their management.


Web cams belong on the web, not our airwaves. I'd rather see the gov get a nice paycheck from cell companies using our bandwidth than a bogus weather cam. Journal Broadcasting isn't paying us for the right to waste that bandwidth. They're already blowing our airwaves on PAX, why not stick the web cam on that and not NBC?

If they interrupt programming and wreck a program in the process, then fine, call or write the station to complain. The odds of getting hit by lightning are massively higher. On the other hand, if they just switch out of HD earlier than you want, which I think is the real issue, tell them that you don't like it. Things like this
are solvable.

1080i is better than 720p when done right, of course. And WTMJ isn't wasting bandwidth (even when testing 4-2 with a screensaver, because I'm more than betting the engineers were testing and tweaking things!).

Regardless, I'll tell you that all the station-bashing won't help your cause,
and it's not helping improve your chances of having a good dialogue with
the engineers and station management. I have yet to meet an engineer
who doesn't want awesome picture and sound coming from his plant.
And even when it does take a long time for them to fix something, I typically don't get mad at them because: 1. They have no DTV transmitter backup,
2. This is still all very new technology and the "instruction manual" at times is a complete joke (IE, they're 'learning by experience'); 3. 90% of viewers only
see the analog signal, the station's bread and butter; DT side makes NO money
except in a few cases; 4. I would assert that many stations don't have proper staffing levels for two TV stations, which is what is happening; 5. integrating DT/HD with analog is a massive pain in the keister, 6. Oh, hi cable company, you want me to attach that fiber for you somewhere? 7. Upconversion technology and quality varies; I've seen 19 mb/sec feeds look like garbage, and 720p look great.
WGN-DT had significant macroblocking during Chicago Cubs games last year. It's not engineering with 19 mb/sec available, and it's not the transmitter. When they upgrade their encoders, their 19 mb/sec feed will look fantastic. First in HD, oldest in technology. And it isn't cheap.

I would say this:

Encoding technology for MPEG-2 is still under research and getting better.
In the next year or two, stations will upgrade and this will continue to improve.

Analog shutdown will allow companies to buy full power and LP stations.
15 kw at 800' for a digital LP? That's 40 mile range with a good antenna!
Shoot, somebody sell me a transmitter! For a half mil, you too can have your
own HD station. You'll see more HD in the future when this happens, my guess,
at full 19.2 mb/sec.

When HD makes a station $1...that's right, $1...on CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX from advertising, it will improve. As far as I know, none have separate card/ad rates
for HD. Correct me if I am wrong, anybody.

And BTW, your weatherhype.com site chastizes 'weather bozos' for rain. A severe thunderstorm warning for up to golfball-sized hail isn't 'rain'. It is a life-threatening situation, and if nothing else, can damage phone lines (and people who are on the phone when this happens), cars, and other objects outside (like kids or husbands playing golf or little league that they can alert via cell phone). Many people don't either have good Internet access, or...don't want to fry their computer by the storm (and wrongly assume it won't nail their TV, but that's another story). 4-2 will do well, I hope, and will certainly serve the community well.

When analog is shut off and technology improves in the next few years, it will get better. Until then, let the stations know of problems cordially, and things will improve.

I'm not a shill for the stations; if there are problems, I let stations know about them. But, by treating the stations with respect, even in the case when they are totally out to lunch, changes will occur, progress will be made. Down on the Chicago boards, I frequently break stories about new things happening. That's not by accident; I hold off letting others know and then let the news fly.
Incidentally, I knew last year 4-2 was coming. The GM there was kind enough to let me know. Respect begets results.

My .$02.

[Joseph S]

And BTW, your weatherhype.com site chastizes 'weather bozos' for rain. A severe thunderstorm warning for up to golfball-sized hail isn't 'rain'.

What hail? It wasn't even raining, yet they interupted programming several times for a "possible rainstorm" due in 4 hours from the broadcast.  This is programming NBC has paid over $1 billion for and they were not showing it. The Wiz pulled the same crap during sweeps on Boston Legal and Commander in Chief and lead ins for the entire episodes when the only thing the national weather service reported was to remove leaves from the drains. That night, it didn't rain at all within 150 miles of Milwaukee though they kept running the picture in picture all night. The person answering the phones agreed it was absurd. The GM refused to answer the question, as usual.  They did the same thing on NBC and ABC in the Spring for a storm that wasn't due to arrive until 3AM.

I'm sorry, I played far too nice for far too long and we got nothing for it. Folks like Dean Maytag lied to me far too often for me to believe their management gives a lick about us. There's no reason why Todd should have to use his own personal pager for a multimillion dollar operation at his own time and expense because WISN can't figure out their own schedule. Sinclair in St. Louis swore at me in 5/2002, after I simply asked why they told me they would make the deadline two months earlier yet hadn't even had a plan approved in 5/02.

Many people don't either have good Internet access, or...don't want to fry their computer by the storm (and wrongly assume it won't nail their TV, but that's another story). 4-2 will do well, I hope, and will certainly serve the community well.

And they want to fry their HDTV? I'm not buying that. You think they won't pull 4-1 like they've done in the past and will solely use 4-2 for announcements? I don't. I also don't believe a thunderstorm or snowstorm warrants an interuption. That's what the 15 second spots during ads are for. A tornado, yes. A highway or bridge flooded out, yes. Rain, no. Snow, no. Thunderstorm, no. We already had a weather subchannel and the Emergency Response System. We don't need this and they'll prove how unnecessary it is by cutting in the next time they do so on the analog station.

[Stanley Kritzik]

So, here I am, with an HR10-250, getting D*'s programming plus the local OTA channels with an antenna.  Is there any way I can get an indication or measurement as to whether the telecast is 480p or better, with what I've got?  Between the HR10-250 and my LCD screen, everything can be "faked" up to 1080i.  But, I can't really get more out of the signal than was put into it, so how can the broadcast spec. be determined?

Also, what's to be expected from D* when they switch to their new compression with their new satellites?  (Or, won't it make a difference?)

Thanks for some wisdom, in advance.

Stan Kritzik

[Bebop]

Your eyes.

They can up-convert to 720p and above, but it will look like garbage if the source wasn't in HD. Take the so called TNTHD for example. I can't stand the channel. I get dizzy every time watching it.   :eek:

[picopir8]

It [720p] doesn't compare to full bit rate 1080, though.

I disagree.  I think 720p looks much better than 1080i.  

1) Only tube TVs are 1080i, most HDTVs are 720p and a few are 1080p.  So if a station broadcasts 1080i, then the signals must be downconverted on 720p sets.  It must also be deinterlaced on both 720p and 1080p TVs.  This will degrade the picture some.

2) Any interlaced signal looks like crap when there is lots of movement (sports, action scenes, etc).  While not that noticable on most TVs, it is VERY noticable on my 12' screen.  Its so bad that I had contemplated geting a line doubler.

3) And then you have the age old arguement that 1080i is actually a lower resolution.  Each frame contains only 540 lines vs 720 w/ 720p.

The only way 1080i would look better than 720p is if you have a 1080p set with a good line doubler or if you have a tube TV (which would interlace a 720p signal).

[Doug Mohr]

I disagree.  I think 720p looks much better than 1080i.  

1) Only tube TVs are 1080i, most HDTVs are 720p and a few are 1080p.  So if a station broadcasts 1080i, then the signals must be downconverted on 720p sets.  It must also be deinterlaced on both 720p and 1080p TVs.  This will degrade the picture some.

2) Any interlaced signal looks like crap when there is lots of movement (sports, action scenes, etc).  While not that noticable on most TVs, it is VERY noticable on my 12' screen.  Its so bad that I had contemplated geting a line doubler.

3) And then you have the age old arguement that 1080i is actually a lower resolution.  Each frame contains only 540 lines vs 720 w/ 720p.

The only way 1080i would look better than 720p is if you have a 1080p set with a good line doubler or if you have a tube TV (which would interlace a 720p signal).

Some of us actually do have 1080i tube sets, so I have to agree with Joseph S that 1080i does look better then 720p on my on my 1080i tube set.  :hug: