Channel 6 rumors

[Joseph S]

From what I here, they found out that the work they have done was not strong enough to handle the new antenna.

Then why wouldn't they state that to the FCC? It would support their case for an extension.

They say nothing to that effect in their application which you would think would be the place to state that. They also have zero receipts for said work "summer work" either in the documenation.

Here's what they say:
1) Schoolbred study (1/98) - Tower needs to be sured up. They hire a contractor to proceed according to that study. Work doesn't get done, they claim it was because of contractor and two years (not 4) of winter. So apparently this wasn't worked out until a year + after the Schoolbred study.

2) Hire new contractor - They put low power on station site tower and have OK from FCC for temp reloc. (No study done on station site tower to justify if that was appropriate)

3) 5/1/02 - They failed to go on air, couldn't get on until later in the week due to problems and late start trying to setup at station tower.

4) Years later - Conduct second study. It says, "Needs more work than Schoolbred recommended."

5) Still Pending - 3rd study is done. They on one hand claim they don't have results, but then assure the FCC that it will have same findings as 2nd. Yet, they state again that they can't proceed because they don't have the results. It's pretty odd that they claim to know, yet deny knowing the results in the same paragraph.

6) 7/1/05 - Not at high power. No approval from FCC for extension to date.

7) This is the kicker - After 7.5y of not doing what either the 1st or 2nd study recommended, they claim they could actually do the work recommended by the second study in a short time.

If they have more evidence, they would be better served telling it to the FCC and the public.

[foxeng]

6) 7/1/05 - Not at high power. No approval from FCC for extension to date.

Not to get in the middle of p-ing contest here, but I do have some knowledge of this subject. As of this date NO station ANYWHERE in the US has been given an extension yet. Why? Because the last date a station could file for one was 7/1/2005 and the FCC will not begin processing of applications until after a deadline. That means the FCC wouldn't even begin looking at applications until July 5th, in this case (if they even started then). The FCC rules state that a station that files BEFORE a deadline can continue to operate until a determination of the application is made. Many people believe that most stations who ask for an extension will be operational before their extension is acted upon based on historical evidence of the FCC. In many cases extensions will be a mute point.

And on the point of WITI being late on the air, from what I know, they did make it on air on May 1, 2002, just very late in the day. Their transmitter was practically destroyed in shipment and the manufacturer had to ship in a lower powered unit to get them on the air while their transmitter was shipped back to the factory and was completely rebuilt.

[jkane]

And on the point of WITI being late on the air, from what I know, they did make it on air on May 1, 2002, just very late in the day. Their transmitter was practically destroyed in shipment and the manufacturer had to ship in a lower powered unit to get them on the air while their transmitter was shipped back to the factory and was completely rebuilt.

And now 3 years later the manufacturer still hasn't shipped it or what?

We're all just tired of excuses.  We want HDTV and we want it 3 years ago!  It's time to start visiting the marketing offices of all the places that advertise on FOX 6 and let them know why we won't shop at their businesses.  Oh yeah, that's right, we don't even know who those advertisers are since we can't watch it to begin with.   :guns:

[Joseph S]

Many people believe that most stations who ask for an extension will be operational before their extension is acted upon based on historical evidence of the FCC.

This is what irks many of us and why I put it as the "kicker." They have known for the most part what needed to be done to sure the tower 7.5 years ago and they haven't done the work even though they claim it won't take much time at all. It seems as if they won't sure up the tower until the FCC says, "your license is at stake."

NBC was on years in advance so we could see the 2002 Winter Olympics. CBS came on in time to show the NCAA Tourney of 2002. These were non O&O stations serving the public at their own dime. Fox had the Superbowl and they did nothing. They had the Packers and NFC football in 480p and they decided to show it to the Fox6 site parking lot for 2002-3. Fox is owned by Rupert Murdoch who is not in a financial bind, yet his company is showing he doesn't care a bit about serving the viewers of Milwaukee.

[borghe]

I have to side with foxeng on this one. While it is certainly frustrating for those who can't get WITI (I know I was frustrated for the first two years I couldn't get them), there are two separate complaints here. There is the complaint that they aren't serving their community as best as we would like to believe they could, and the complaint that they are in some sort of FCC violation. We have to make it known that despite our frustrations, as is able to be looked up on the FCC site AND information from foxeng on this, WITI has never been in violation of any FCC mandates or deadlines WITHOUT approval. So vent your frustrations, blame it on poor customer service, whatever. However we can't say that they are openly violating anything the FCC has laid down, because they haven't.

as to the frustration/rant aspect, I won't comment any further. I can understand the frustration, having been there already, but I can understand what foxeng and others are saying about the difficulties and complexities of pulling off something like this. Just because other stations have done it doesn't mean it's easy.

[bradsmainsite]

I don't remember anybody saying it was "easy" just that every station
is up and running with the exception of fox 6! :bang:

You know when you have a business and you have customers you do what
it takes to get it right regardless of cost or problems, thats just good business
practice.

I look at what CBS 58 has done the last week and koodoos to those guys for
doing what they did in a week or two, thats what I'm taking about when I
say you do what it takes.  Nothing more nothing less!

Great job CBS 58

Brad

[Gilbert]

I don't remember anybody saying it was "easy" just that every station
is up and running with the exception of fox 6! :bang:

You know when you have a business and you have customers you do what
it takes to get it right regardless of cost or problems, thats just good business
practice.

I look at what CBS 58 has done the last week and koodoos to those guys for
doing what they did in a week or two, thats what I'm taking about when I
say you do what it takes.  Nothing more nothing less!

Great job CBS 58

Brad

One thing you have to remember, and Foxeng helped me to remember, is that every station's situation is different. Every transmitter plant is different,
every tower is different, and every circumstance is different. One engineer
I know in Chicago told me his foibles about getting a permit to install
an air conditioner...which took the city 6 MONTHS to approve! Foxeng,
are we having fun yet? :-) I think you can relate. Yeah, he was frustrated!

I bet very little of this discussion would be happening if their STA power weren't
so low. It can be argued that with such low power, the community isn't being
reliably served via the tower. If they went 30 kw, no one would yell. Heck, WCIU-DT in Chicago is 15 kw but that signal on Sears gets 'em out 60+ miles with an outdoor antenna.

Correct me if I am wrong, but 15 kw is the maximum power low-power DTV stations will have on UHF after analog shutdown. That gets you 40 miles with
no problem if you're getting the full signal.

That having been said, it is all water under the bridge. We cannot change when
they will sign on to full power; the engineers are breaking their backs trying to get to full power. Again, yell at Rupert, maybe upper management at WITI,
but I'm guessing the engineers there aren't in a great mood right now.

P.S. My FOX DT affiliate in Rockford won't sign on until October!

Gilbert

[foxeng]

I look at what CBS 58 has done the last week and koodoos to those guys for
doing what they did in a week or two, thats what I'm taking about when I
say you do what it takes.  Nothing more nothing less!

What you seem to be blind of is this like an iceberg. You only see a small part of it above the water. It is the part beneath the surface that is the killer.

Yeah, for 2 weeks channel 58 could crow about their new DTV transmitter. What they and every over station IS NOT telling you is that it took months and in some cases YEARS to get to that point.

You see the result. You do not see the blood, sweat, and tears it takes to get to that "2 week" nirvana.

I realize I can't make you understand this the way I do because you have no point of reference. All you know is you turn on your TV and you want it to work NOW. End of story. You don't care what it takes, "jest git 'er dun."  I accept that.

But just consider this: I have no idea what you do for a living, but for the sake of argument you are a mechanic. I bring in my car for repair. You tell me it will take 2 days to fix. The replacement part comes in and the supplier has sent the wrong part. I show up demanding my car because you said you would have it ready. You explain that due to no fault of your own, you can't fix it yet and I can't have my car just now. But I don't care. That isn't my problem, that is your problem. You said you would have it fixed in 2 days and now you have LIED to me and you are making excuses because of YOUR incompetence that the supplier sent the wrong part. "Jest git 'er dun."

Now I realize that may not be the best comparision, but as a broadcaster, when I read some of the trash talking that goes on the different HD boards when I know that is not the situation, that is what it sounds like to me.

And yes, every station IS technically different and every station has its own unique situations. That is why broadcast equipment is not off the shelf items. For the most part, the equipment is not manufactured until it is ordered and that in itself introduces unique problems. I am not saying it is right, I am saying that is just how it is.

[Joseph S]

I realize I can't make you understand this the way I do because you have no point of reference.

We do have a point of reference. Unfortunately, Fox doesn't. When we fail to meet our deadlines there are consequences.

You see the result. You do not see the blood, sweat, and tears it takes to get to that "2 week" nirvana.

Fox won't get that nirvana because they didn't get their tower ready in the last 8 years. They couldn't utilize that new transmitter up even if they did order on time because unlike CBS they still don't have their tower ready.

The deadlines were made with plenty of give, unfortunately folks like Sinclair chose to BS for years about ATSC as a front for them not spending a cent on DTV in all markets. They would publish articles on the mythical fifth gen tuner as if that could actually pick up non-existent DTV signals from Sinclair. Finally, they gave in. Though they have failed to go HD for the local UPN station no matter how much BS Mister DTV spews, Sinclair is transmitting DTV as rqd at the rqd power no matter how much many here want HD and higher power.

Fox also has chosen to waste every bit of time they were given to meet the deadlines. Fox isn't meeting the requirments because they are a Fox affiliate and Fox, CBS, NBC, ABC have to be on full power in the top 100 markets now. Fox was supposed to be at low power on the main tower, not the station site, in 2002. They failed at that and had to get a waiver to provide subpar service. They were supposed to be at full power 7/1, they failed at that so many continue to be without. No matter how long it takes to order the equipment, they failed to do even the minimum which was required so that once the equipment came it could be put to use. Of course we can assume it hasn't been ordered as of 5/20, because it's not on the receipts either.

Either meet the deadlines, provide a logical excuse such as the tower fell down in an accident, or quit whining. In 8 years they could have built a replacement tower. The time has come for Fox to put up, shut up, give us back the airwaves so we can loan them to a competent owner. Every job has deadlines and requirments. Failing to meet requirements isn't exactly an excuse.

There isn't one of us that if we had to meet this deadline would have planned for everything to work on 5/1/02 or 7/1/05. We would have planned to be up and testing well in advance so if there were issues, we would be able to address them. Fox waited until the absolute last minute and they are getting just criticism right now for an absolute failure in planning.

[foxeng]

We do have a point of reference. Unfortunately, Fox doesn't. When we fail to meet our deadlines there are consequences.

OK. Whatever you say.

[bubbaridesfast]

First time I saw such a rant on this board!

 I can't get Fox6 myself and can't wait until they are full strength but people, relax a little, apparently there isn't anything that we can do to effect an outcome here.
It's sounding like we'll be at each other's throats pretty soon.

[Talos4]

I've thought about this post since last night, and trying to formulate a response.  the only whining I'm hearing is from those with nothing better to do than rag at broadcasters that "won't/can't) meet a deadline.

Deadlines are a wonderful thing.  I cannot tell you how many pretty construction schedules I've looked at.  All of them junk.

"The code is more like a guideline" And that's what construction schedules are.

I guarantee you that someone printed one up for the tower project, transmitter install, antenna install, painting, wiring, testing... put them all together and said, "THAT'S WHEN WE WILL BE DONE".

Baloney,

Every project i've been involved in (and it's been many) RARELY keeps to the timeline setup PRIOR to the actual start of the project.

Weather, late material deliveries, equipment breakdowns, wrong material shipped, etc, etc, contribute to delays.

CHANGE ORDERS all the time. Engineers, designers, architects, field conditions all generate changes that take time to implement.

And whose stuck holding the bag when it's not on schedule? NOT the owner, engineer, designers, or even the architects :mad:   it's the poor slob of a foreman from the GC that has to answer to all of them.

The work is in progress, they'll "giterdun".

Sit back and have some patience (yes I know IT'S BEEN THREE YEARS!!!). When your part of only 4% of those who actually can see what's being broadcast waiting is hard.

[SRW1000]

Based on WITI's 5/20/05 extension request, I have to side against Channel 6 in this case.

Yes, we have seen delays in getting digital transmission equipment, but there's no mention of that in the request.  The delay is based on questions about the tower's strength and work that wasn't completed by 2002 by their contractor.

I'm not going to place blame on any given person or department, but it doesn' t look like everyone was doing their job.  If the original contractor wasn't doing the work on schedule, there should have been penalties in the contract that still would have allowed for WITI to meet their dates.

If there's a question as to the safety of the tower that requires a third study, then a second study should have been done initially.

This process shouldn't have taken three years, as witnessed by the statement that they expected to complete all remaining work within four months of getting the third study.

And yes, there may be more to the story, but I'm basing my opinion on what was written in the extension application.  And judging by the way it's written, it still doesn't present a compelling reason for the delay.  There's no time-line shown for what was done from 2002 to the present, which would either weaken or strengthen 6's arguments.  Since they omitted it in the application, it leads one to think that the time-line would work against them.

This is where the FCC failed.  They should have set up monetary penalties for stations that didn't make their dates.  This would have made stations put a higher priority on getting the basic work done well within the required time period.

Foxeng, I don't mean to pick on you, and I respect and admire you for posting to the various forums giving us the broadcaster's point of view.  But, in you car repair example, if the mechanic still hasn't gotten your part after two months, you're not going to be happy with him, and you're going to start thinking that the excuses he's given you are a cover for his real motivations.  More than likely you'd start looking for another repair shop or try and check on his story.  

That's what's going on here.  We don't have a choice at finding another Milwaukee FOX station, so we're left looking at what we know of why we still can't get their signal.  

And Talos4, if none of the projects you're involved with are ever close to their projected time-lines, then someone in your company is not doing a very good job in either their time-line planning and/or execution.  Yes, there are always problems that crop up, but a well-run company will have anticipated some of those problems or works their tail off finding timely solutions for most of the others.  Financial penalties have a wonderful effect on keeping projects on target.

To dismiss our frustration with WITI as "whining" really isn't fair or accurate.  Most of us have understood that this isn't any easy conversion, and have been willing to cut slack to the stations that have communicated their problems to us, as long as those problems seemed reasonable.

I keep going back to the absurd fact that little old religious station (channel 30), with the most meager of resources, can get a watchable digital signal up long before their deadline, but a FOX-owned station is still making excuses at this point.  That's where the frustration sets in.

Scott

[bradsmainsite]

To foxeng,

I quess all that I was trying to say is someone needs to take responsibility
for the failures that has taken place, but instead all we keep getting is excuses.

If my mechanic treated me like this whole situation has been presented I would
no longer be going their along with must of the people that I know.

I do understand what you are trying to say and I'am not trying to pick a fight
just trying to point out the other side here.

Thanks for all of your insight in this matter because as I have stated I DO NOT
have all the facts, but enough to form my own opinion in this matter thats all, and all it is, is my opinion.

Brad

[Nels Harvey]

Wow!  This thread I started has turned into a bruhaha!

I have a couple of points to bring up.  First, regarding the Ch. 6 tower, it was designed and built to support 100 MPH winds, OR 2 inches of ice.  OSHA has changed the specs to require the tower to withstand 100 MPH winds And 2 inches of ice!

Channels 10 and 36 were located on the tower for years, and Ch. 6 was a great supporter for Milwaukee Public Television.  After the requirements changed, Ch 10 and Ch 36 moved to the Ch. 18 tower in 1979, which is located on MATC property.

On the 6 tower, Ch. 10 could only go to 750 ft. with 3 1/2 inch feedline, and Ch. 36 was only at 400 ft. also with 3 1/2 inch feedline, quite inefficient at UHF.  Further, the transmit power on Ch. 36 was set at only 12KW due to coax power limits.  All this was determined before the more stringent wind loading requirements.

In order to put their DTV antenna up on the tower, there was a need to determine and bolster the limits for the tower, and work within those limits.  Remember, this is a self supporting tower, and it's a lot more than welding a couple of braces to it.  It entailed a great deal more study, and engineering certifications.  Oh, by the way, Ch. 49 wanted to build a tower a few blocks away from there, and was soundly turned down.  It ain't easy to build a new tower these days, anymore!

The next issue is the studio requirements.  There is a tremendous expense to upgrade the studio end to accommodate DTV signals.  There is a whole lot more to it than just up-converting NTSC to DTV, but that is all many stations are doing just to satisfy the FCC.  To do it right, it requires entire new switchers, character generators, recording equipment, and all the included control and signal cables.  All this from a revenue stream that was barely supporting the NTSC system in many cases.  I don't think Ch. 30 has done that yet, even though they are on DTV.  Oh yeah, Ch. 49 can hardly keep themselves on the air, much less go DTV!

I'm anxious to see an improved signal from Fox, and frankly am a little disappointed that their plans only are to send 720P DTV to us, but we have seen some good improvements from them, and sniping on filing dates, and criticizing their progress probably isn't going to bring the final product from Fox 6 to us all any sooner.  You can bet there is a great deal of frustration there from the Fox 6 engineers and management in trying to pull this all together timely, and within budget.  I say "give 'em a break!"

Nels....