6 & 58

[bschmidt25]

Are channels 6 and 58 operating at full power?  I read in some of the archives that they weren't, but that was late summer.  These are the only 2 channels that I have consistent problems with.  Granted, my antenna placement leaves much to be desired.  My unit faces north and I'm on the second floor of a 3 story building.  I have to aim my antenna northwest to get anything.  I'm actually not doing too bad though.  I live in Glendale - about 5 miles from the towers.  4 and 12 are off the chart; 10, 18, 24, and 36 are usually around 70-80%.  6 and 58 are all over the place - some days I get them, some days I don't.  I have to move my antenna to the other side of my deck to even have a chance of getting them and I actually have more problems getting 58 than 6.

I'm using an AntennasDirect DB2 - no amp and a short run of RG6 (about 20 feet) to my TV (Zenith C32V37 w/ built in HD tuner).

Thanks in advance for the input!  

[GBK]

As far as I know they are NOT at full power I believe that the deadline for full coverage is this summer. Let hope we won't have any delays.

[kevbeck122]

I don't get 6 at all OTA, and I only get 58/41(wmlw- 58-2) when I have my antenna pointed in a certain way.  But then if it's pointed like that, I don't get 18, 24 or 36.  Of course I'm using old rabbit ears that use 300ohm flat wire, so that probably doesn't help.

[pretzelkid]

According to:

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

CBS 58 broadcasts at 11.7 kW and FOX 6 broadcasts at 5.4 kW

For comparison...
WISN 12 - 570 kW
WTMJ 4   - 1000 kW
WCGV 24- 24.8 kW
WVTV 18 - 18.9 kW
PBS 8       - 25.1 kW
PBS 36     - 75 kW

and all are on towers from around 800 to 1200 feet.....

[StarvingForHDTV]

What kW level can we expect as of July do you think?  It probably won't be 1000 kW across the board, or will it?  

I'm surprised that 18-1 is putting out triple the power of 6-1  I have to struggle to get both signals.  I'm also shocked that 58-1 is less than 18-1.  I have never experienced any difficulty with 58-1's signal.  Maybe certain antennas are aimed at me better than others.

[pretzelkid]

Full Power is different things to different stations. Bear with me cuz it's a very simplified explanation on my part but I think it's based on reaching 95% of your current OTA analog audience and also that higer rf frequencies require more power to reach distance than lower rf frequencies do. So WVTV 18 at rf 61 would need a lot more power than FOX 6 at rf 33 to reach the same distance.

[audiopile]

FCC web site lists the following as ERP ( Effective Radiated Power) for Milw. stations. ERP takes into account antenna design - it tries to describe how much power is actually being broadcast as opposed to raw transmitter power - which does not take into account antenna design - Height Above Average Terrain of the actuall transmitting antenna , etc.
Ch-35 /36-1  500Kw
22/30-1  196kW
25/24-1 625kW
61/18-1 850kW
34/12-1   863kW
8/10-1 thru 10-7 25.1 kW ( note: VHF)
33/6-1 989kW
28/4-1 1000 kW
46/58-1 thru 58-5 1000kW
   I've also gone through some struggle with 33/6-1 and sorta wonder why. Their engineering staff did say that updates were due this summer. So far have found myself choosing between 6 or 18  DTV - settled on 33/6-1 and when I very rarely watch 18 - do so in analog. For what it's worth - only 4 and 10 DTV are actually fully licensed - the others are all operating under construction permits or modified construction permits. I'm not sure if this means they aren't done implementing their DTV services or simply haven't finished submitting the enginneering data and actual measurments required to get a license ?

[Gregg Lengling]

Audiopile the numbers you quote for ERP are the licensed output numbers.  In reality you have to look at the STAs for the stations.  Many are running reduced power (58, 6, 12 ect).  The rules state that they have to increase power by 7/1/05 to cover 95% of their viewing area, we'll wait and see what happens in the next few months.

[audiopile]

Greg;
           That makes a lot more sense - the ERP's listed on the FCC web sites must be what they are applying for - what their broadcast engineers have determined they could get given geographic channel spacing requirments ,etc.  Sure does make sense that 8 and 28 are the get it almost everywhere channels. So - to summarize - the FCC ERP's are likely the maxiumum we can expect from these channels and wiith the exception of 10 and 4 DTV are likely to be anywhere from 10 to 20 TIMES more powerfull than they are now? It is absolutly amazing how well local DTV works given how low the transmiter power levels are.
     Now - to get back to doing something about the problems the original poster was having: 1.) Get a Zenith Silver Sensor @ $25-30 2.) Go to radio Schak and geta pre-terminated RG-6 or RG-6Quad Shield. You'll still have to move the Silver Sensor around - but it  is somewhat predicatably directional and works way better than rabbit ears.
       Out of frustration with not being able to figure any other way of aligning antennas for DTV I went out and bought a Sencore SL-1453 - the roughly half dozen widely spaced locations I have tried out the SS in have all worked to some degree and it probably works better for the inside the apartment  situation than anything else =- simply because you can put it in a window and aim it at  your tower of choice..   If you look at a fair number of the disapointed posts on this product you'll see people trying to DX with it at 45mi. ranges or shoot thru 3 walls and a mountain - a CM 4228 won't do this and a sub $30 ant. won't either.
   Try the silver sensor and factory terminated cable - it'll be worth the investment.

[audiopile]

Sorry for the mis-information on original post - DB-2 should work at least as well as silver sensor -  I have to learn to not post 'till after coffee.

[pretzelkid]

So can I assume the 2150 website I mentioned above has accurate power outputs as it stands today? They were listed as ERP/HAAT, I didn't post the exact tower heights.  It really is amazing that we can get some of these stations at such relatively low power. I can get CBS 58 pretty reliable but FOX 6 not at all. The radiation pattern for FOX 6 looks ridiculous right now...surely it will have to change as well to reach their 95% right??

[Gregg Lengling]

Yes those are the actual license ERP's when the station is completely built and licensed.  Channel 6 is running off a cardiod antenna at a lower elevation on their tower right now with very very very low power.  They do have an antenna near the top for the digital with the proper radiation pattern to cover their service area when they add  their high power transmitter later this year (hopefully).

[pretzelkid]

Sorry Gregg, I meant the power numbers from the 2150 website since most are lower except for 28/4-1 and 8/10.1 which audiopile mentioned as currently fully licensed and matched 2150.com. It would be interesting to see what that whopping 5.4 kW Fox 6 is pumping would do if it were coming out their final antenna on top of the tower.  Probably still be trying to DX that signal....

[Nels Harvey]

There are loading problems on the Ch. 6 tower.  That's one reason ch. 10 and Ch. 36 moved off years ago.  Ch. 6 had two feedlines going to the Ch. 6 antennas.  I believe the plan was to use one of those feedlines for the Ch. 33 DTV.  That might be why they aren't feeding the antenna on top yet.

The tower was rated for 100MPH winds, or 2 inches of ice.  Now the standard is 100MPH winds WITH 2 inches of ice, hence the overload problems.  Ch. 10 used to be at 750 feet, and Ch. 36 was at about 400 feet.  Ch. 36 was also limited by the weight of their feedline, and was limited to 3 1/2 inch hardline.  Their transmit power was limited to 12,500 Watts, because the feedline wouldn't support higher power.

The costs for upgrading to digital HDTV are very high.  The transmitting equipment is expensive enough, and the suppliers are not able to supply all the stations at once.  

Don't forget there are significant studio upgrades needed just to pass network feeds through, much less produce local feeds.  The halls are lined with equipment to be installed at Ch. 10/36 and it takes time and money to get this installed.  Remember, Ch. 10/36 are HDTV leaders in the area, but the tasks are overwhelming.  I think they all deserve a chance!

Nels....

[Joseph S]

The halls are lined with equipment to be installed at Ch. 10/36 and it takes time and money to get this installed.

If they didn't censor all their programming, maybe they would get more donations.