Group meeting to discuss technical issues

[ReesR]

I must admit that I am frustrated with the lack of certain stations not being totally upfront with the community at large.  I have called and asked to talk to station managers only to be ignored with the call never returned.  I have discussed issues with many but no one appears to have any answers to when these technical limitations will be overcome.  Some problems are said to be technical yet I feel after talking with some they are merely attempting to snow us.

I believe I can speak for most in this group that we have spent alot of money only to find stations promoting their leadership in high definition while at the same time deceiving us in not providing full disclosure.  They hang a carrot out there while we watch with our older receivers in analog only to find out the limitations AFTER we buy into it.  That is simply not fair play.  

For example, I would never have spent this amount of money if I had known ahead of time 58 and 6 were running low power, 4 was running part time and 10 was multi-casting.  I found this out AFTER I purchased my high def receiver.  

I purchased my tv thinking I was going to use it as a high definition not a multi-casting receiver.  It will be well over $4000 by the time I am done.  This is large for an individual as I hope you would agree. I was led to believe that I would be able to receive CBS, HD Net, PBS, ABC, NBC, WB, UPN and other special programming on a regular time period.  I have yet to see HD Net on 58.  I was led to believe I would receive high definition and not multi-casting.  I have seen a total of only 2 hours of high definition programming from our Public Broadcasting station since getting my receiver even though they have had two years to settle into this technology.

While the networks have indicated a further increase in high def programming, the current situation does not avail itself to receiving these resources if we are not in close proximity of those stations running less than their legal power levels.  

Temporary authority given to them to run low power has been taken advantage of.  Siting the cost of electricity was really hard to swollow considering the incremental cost increase that represented.  Using cost and not a dual revenue stream shows that they are not looking at this as an opportunity but merely as something they have to do.  How un-enlightning.

Would it be out of line of me to suggest that we band together and have a meeting to discuss this whole issue and see what we could possibly do as a group?  

Individually, we are getting more frustrated with more programming not being able to be received and it might be more productive to attempt some type of group collective thinking at some agreeable location so we can clearly come up with something positive that would help the current situation.

Options I am currently thinking of is to have a sort of summit meeting with the local station managers and/or decision makers with the purse strings.  Contacting the FCC.  Providing a web site for Milwaukee community users and finding a way to inform people of it.

I am perfectly willing to play fair if the stations are.

I seek your comments.

Regards,



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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver:  Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet

[tenth_t2]

Rees,

You are not alone in your frustrations, believe me.  I jumped on the HDTV scene in January of 2002, just for the Olympics.  While that was great, I soon found not much else except Crossing Jordan, and the Tonight Show.  Which lead me to invest in a lot of rooftop antenna stuff.  There are several others here that took this leap a year before I did-- sets probably cost more, and there was even less content, it's one of those things being an early adopter.

If you've taken the time to look around this forum and others, I think specifically in the Milwaukee market that 58 has been the station making the most improvements in general.  Unfortunately I saw a thread about the dirctional limitations of the 58 signal, and I'd suspect that you being in Racine are in a bad spot to get the signal at it's current strength.  On the flip side though, I see a reasonable looking antenna, have you tried aiming at the Chicago area?  I have to believe that you'll have a good shot at solid signals as a few others in Muskego, etc. have gotten Chicago relatively well.  Those of us on the west side of town have good luck with Madison, primarily ABC.  Makes up for the poor excuse of an ABC affiliate we have here with all the antenna bickering they're finally past it looks like.

Certainly some of the recent actions by the FCC won't hurt, although it's going to take a while for them to take effect.  Although I don't know all the details, I really don't understand what looks like a loop hole to me with regards to broadcast power.  WITI is broadcasting at something like cell phone power (not really, but I've glanced at other threads that rip on the feeble effort).  To me, if a station serves the market with an analog signal, they should serve the digital equivalent to that same market.  Meaning, I have NO problems tuning WITI on 6, yet have never been able to get them digitally.  Note, not that I'd really watch much on FOX anyway with their 480p plan.

Another point of frustration to me has been that I don't believe that the FCC is mandating HD broadcasting, generally accepted as 720 lines progressively delivered.  They are mandating digital transmission of the signal.  (Anyone straighten me out if I'm off here).  And don't even start me on the digital cable thing, I think that's a farce mostly.

Even though I can't solve the problems, welcome to the group.  I will tell you that both Jim Hall and Sean O'Flaherty frequent this forum and BOTH have been excellent participants even though they work for competing stations.  There also is a engineer from the NBC affiliate in Madison that has poked in once in a while, so what we need to do is clone these guys and get them hired at other Miwaukee stations (if it were only that easy, I know I'm overstating that).

I can only hope those stations that were dragging their feet here have to cough up some big bucks to hang onto their broadcast spectrums.

Greg O.

[ReesR]

Thanks for your sympathic words.  However, do you have any comment on us meeting together to leverage our numbers?  Individually, I believe we will just stay frustrated.  Together, we might be able to effect some positive change.

What say you?

[Tom Snyder]

There is strength in numbers...

Unfortunately, the kinds of numbers that mean jack-squat to station GM's are the ones that tally into the hundreds of thousands.

I suspect that, with the (tremendously visionary) exception of Jim Hall there isn't a single other GM in the market that even knows about us, and even if they did, they'd laugh at our hubris.

[ReesR]

Isn't that giving up before we even talk about it?

[Tom Snyder]

I'm not sure that you'd call this:

- the mulititude of individual attempts for the several years now by some of us old-timers to get the ball rolling,

- the founding of this group (what is it now... almost a year ago we had our organizational meeting?) to begin to gather strength in numbers, but meeting with resounding indifference from most of the stations pretty much contuously from day 1 (Sean and Jim being the exceptions)

- The offer to the more visionary stations to lead by example by using this group for signal testing, picture quality focus groups, etc., etc., etc.

- organized complaints to the F.C.C. and the media

"giving up before we even talk about it."

We all feel the pain expressed by the constant stream of new guys coming aboard who feel the same frustration with the lack of progress that many of us have been feeling now for a long time (some of us since we saw our first HDTV broadcasts at an NAB convention over 10 years ago).

I don't want this to sound like we're giving up. We're always open to new ideas. And while we appreciate your participation, your suggestions are not as much "new" as they are the actual history of our organization.

Todd and Kevin... am I off-base?

[Gregg Lengling]

You are not off base, the small numbers of our group will do nothing to move the local broadcasters (except those that have decided to become pioneers).  

The only way to get attention is via the constant e-mails and phone calls that after a while will become burdensome to station management.  A well thought out individual attack is more effective than a group attack.  As a group we become a disgruntled minority.  As individuals we become more of a force as quantity gets attention.  I've tried different tacks will little response.  I've attacked American TV with e-mails asking how they can sponsor ads and give-away promotions of HDTV via WISN when they haven't even got a signal on the air.

Individually we have a greater presence.  E-mails, phone calls, letters, and even editorial response to the local papers will help.  Unfortunately a big ally would be Tim Cuprisin, but even the Journal won't fund him to have a HDTV and apparently (this really gets my goat) he won't use his own funds to be able to get a set and see for himself.  

With newspaper coverage and complaints to the FCC being our only public avenue(you know damn well direct correspondance to the stations will never become public) is the only way to go.

An additional thought is places like Flanners and other high-end Video retailers would have a vested interest in the furtherance of HDTV, their help and publicity would garner more interest and get notice.  I posted an article the other day showing that the kilobuck barrier has been broken with 2 tube sets (I think Zenith if my memory serves me right) are now available.  As product continues to arrive the attention of the public and the station managers and advertisers will be peaked.  

We can only hope.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[ReesR]

My first reaction was to crawl into a hole and never come out.  I was hurt by this comment by Tom: "the pain expressed by the constant stream of new guys"

How was I to know what has been done?  There is no FAQ, no place to read about the history of what you guys have been doing over the years.

IF we had met, I would have suggested that we use our "limited" numbers to leverage the bigger numbers.  To seek out from the retail establishments the names and addresses of those who have purchased HDTV systems so we could advise THEM what to do.  One individual could never do that.  It would take time and effort by a core team of people who really would like to see positive change occur.

I certainly would not want to make this kind of campaign public because, in the end, it would only serve to delay the number of systems sold.  But, by forcing me to show my ideas here instead of at a meeting I guess they are out in the public arena now.

I would think that retailers would see it as a positive move that "someone" is doing something about it.  I just thought it would have been a natural for us to do that.  But without the opportunity for "new" ideas to get out, we will be destined to continue to get "the pain expressed by the constant stream of new guys".

Tom, I am not trying to be negative.  Merely, trying to address the frustration we all feel and try to use that energy to see if anything new could be accomplished.

I am sorry that the pain of this new guy hit such a painful area Tom.  I had spent quite a bit of time writing at the beginning of this thread trying to be as objective and positive as I could without whining.  I was merely looking to "do something" which would help.  I am honestly sorry to hear that others are more frustrated than I.



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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver:  Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet

[Matt Heebner]

Hey ReesR...we are all interested in the end result. I personally find your enthusiasm refreshing, as though a little "new life" has been injected in this group. We all started off feeling the same way, but after a little time you kinda realize that no matter how hard you try, things still move at a snails pace. Frustration sets in, and no matter how much you want things to happen....they don't. But things have changed over the last year...and for the good! But I think we are on the brink of an explosion in HD. More programming, more stations, more HD!
We as a group have to be kinda careful...these stations who are not broadcasting now, and who we bitch about the most, soon will be doing HD and it would be nice to get their support to be a legitimate informational and supportive website to new people. I really dont want WISN (for example) who might want to get the word out that they finally are in HD, to look back on the "early" days of this website and say to themselves, "We are not going to use this place for a local contact, all they did was complain for a year about how bad we were."
I am all for informing the public about the status of stations, and critizing them for their wrong actions, but they have their own agenda, and timeline, and all the emailing in the world (especially from only 200 people) isnt going to get them going any faster. Maybe if we had 2000 people things might be different, but I guess that's the curse of the "early adopter".
I think the best action plan is to criticize when neccessary without coming off as complaining, praising when warrented. Very often here I have seen much complaining about things not going right, and very little praise when something does go right. You capture more bees with honey...
And we still need to let retailers and the public know we are here. There is strength in numbers, and I think over the next year we are going to see quite an increase in members.
Matt

[This message has been edited by Matt Heebner (edited 09-02-2002).]

[ReesR]

Ok, here are a few more specific suggestions:

Contact Wisconsin Electric to ask them to sponsor HDTV.  Slogan:  "See what electricity can do for your TV!"

Contact Flanner to do the same.  Slogan: "We see you clearly now"  to the song of the same name.

Contact American to do the same.
Slogan:  "Whats more American than HDTV?"

Contact Colder.
Slogan "Dont be left out in the cold.  Get HDTV now".

ETC ETC ETC

If we were to contact these people in the right way, I would think we could find someone who would be enlightened enough to participate.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Miller beer slogan for HDTV?

You get enough of these and people would get the idea that HDTV would be mainstream all of a sudden.  Combine this with the increased programming this fall and BAM you have the combination you need to convince local stations to pay for the electricity they need.

A win-win combination.

Someone has to start the idea.  Why not us?

------------------
Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver:  Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet

[Kevin Arnold]

I think you're on to something with the positive approach. In all honesty, there are simply just no enough of us to make a difference to any one station with one exception - we can be a test audience for both programming and technical adjustment for the broadcaster. This might be a non threatning way to offer our assistance to the various stations just setting up. I would happily and willingly help out 12 or any other station when they set up their digital signal. We could offer that to them and others to make their jobs easier. We can give them receptions reports, spot signal problems, and help them fine tune their transmitters without sending engineers out in trucks to find out. In return maybe we get a dialog going. How about we make this official, inviting the new guys on the block to take advantage of some free feedback. And it might actually be interesting. The beefs will never stop here in the forum but that is what internet forums are all about. You really need a thick skin to be here, otherwise as a participant or a broadcaster you will be constantly irritated by these postings. Any thoughts?

[Gregg Lengling]

Now this is a constructive non-threatening idea.  I know that Jim Hall has used our feedback and was very appreciative of it.  I'm sure that any other station manager or engineer would welcome that sort of help.  Now I think it is an important item that the active members/board (so called for lack of a better term) put together a objective statement paper to forward to the pertinent station managers and engineers.  I'm sure that at least 1 or more would welcome the helpful insight and feedback.  Of course there will always be 1 or more that will totally ignore offers of this type because they are more interested in their analogue revenues than actually delivering a product that the consumer wants.  Especially with the high price they paid for their spectrum (yeah right....they got it free and 6MHz of spectrum would cost a Mobile Phone enterprise bidding on it over 1 billion dollars for a nationwide license).  Actually I have seen small chunks at 800 and 900 go for pretty high prices...I sold 200KHz at 800 for over 7 figures for the Milwaukee Market only (70 mile radius operational service area).  So you go figure out what 6MHz of Television frquencies are worth.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9
glengling@ameritech.net

[Tom Snyder]

Rees:

I don't want my my comments to be received negatively, either. By talking about the pain we're feeling...we're not asking for sympathy, we're more just saying "welcome to the club."  

And, as I said, new ideas are welcome...cuz what some of us have been doing hasn't been having much impact.  

[ReesR]

Thanks for sharing that Tom.  Much appreciated.  So, am I to conclude then that a meeting of the minds would be received with enthusiasum?

I guess I am seeking some level of go ahead with this.  I don't believe in just doing something and just asking forgiveness later.  This is because I would love to see a whole bunch of people involved.

I'm looking for a win-win senario.  For us, for the new buyer, for the retailer, for the tv stations.

Because of what I do now (full time caregiver for my 89 year old Alzheimers mother) I have time I could spend on this currently.  I would feel like I was doing something positive if I could expend energy this way so everyone could benefit.

[ReesR]

Update:

I received a surprise email from Jim Hall this morning.  He offered to have a phone conversation to see what he could do to rectify the problem I was having receiving WDJT-DT.

What occurred was, to me, a wonderful interchange of realities.  I think it is fair to conclude that my expectations were/are much higher than his "realities".

We discussed a tremendous range of issues regarding the whole DTV environment.  Jim, thank you for taking the inititive.

He has offered and I have accepted to have his station's involvment to see what is causing my reception problem.  I must admit that my expectations have been taken down a notch.  We talked about much more.  That much more needs to be done.

While I still see many opportunities that could be investigated, I am currently thinking that I need to digest what Jim shared with me.

I will keep you informed.  But for now I think we should put on hold any ideas for involving this group.

Regards,


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Rees Roberts
Racine, WI
reesr@wi.net

HDTV Receiver:  Sony KD-34XBR2
Bi-directional Yagi Antenna at 30 feet