Storms & HDTV

[techguy1975]

How will severe weather like tonights storms affect HDTV?  As the storms moved in, I noticed some digital blurbs on the MPTV digital channels TWC, and on the FOX feed to Ch 6, it got quite bad on 6, even to the point where it froze for a second.

Is this going to be the norm on this "great new system" that is going to be crammed down our throats?

[borghe]

I have noticed lots of "rain fade" on both TWC and DirecTV over the years. While being a DirecTV proponent, I will admit that last night was bad, with not having satellite for most of the time between when the storm rolled into the area and about 10ish or so. The upside is that this is really only the second time I have lost my signal for any great length of time this year. Satellites claims are that rain fade will affect you for a total of a few hours a year. Well, I am at a few so far, but we are already 2/3 of the way through they year.

With as bad a picture as I am painting for DirecTV, TWC is only a little better. Numerous times have I been over at friends and relatives during a bad storm and have lost certain digital channels, mostly seeming to be HBO channels (or maybe that's just mostly what I watch over their  ). When it happens it is usually followed up with comments like "Oh, this happens all the time. It'll pass when the weather clears up." I can only assume that TWC receives a number of their feeds from satellite and is also suceptible to "rain fade".

As for HDTV, I did notice that during the storm, 58 took a pretty sever signal strength hit on my box and 4 would fluctuate wildly between 100% and 0%. I wonder if this has to do with multi-path interference? I am using an indoor antenna which I know certainly doesn't help. Finally around the time my DirecTV stayed on, my OTA stabilized. I was able to watch OTA during the storm, but is was subject to breaking up more frequently than normal. Much more.

As much as weather plays a role in analog transmissions, it plays an even bigger role in digital ones. If weather causes an analog signal to be too weak, it wil look snowy. If the same weather causes a digital signal to be too weak, you just won't get picture and sound, or it will break up. My question in all of this is, what can us indoor antenna users do to fight the effects of inclimate weather?

On a recurring note, even though most of my signal strengths went down considerably last night, channel 33 once again started coming in at 3-6 signal strength. This usually happens during storms or tropo inversions. hehe.. Maybe during a tornado I willactually get to watch a few seconds of Fox  

[Tom Snyder]

During storms, I've experienced temporary loss of signal on Cable, Satellite, and OTA. I've also experienced a loss of signal that happens between the Network and the affiliate...and  loss of signal on the radio (Usually AM, sometimes FM, and back in the old days CB). I've also had to come in the house to avoid getting rained on or struck by lightening. And every so often I've had it knock out my power altogether.

I guess the only thing I would say is being "crammed down our throats" is an occasionally stormy atmosphere that wreaks havoc on all sorts of stuff.

The one to complain to about that is someone that I know keeps an eye on this board, but doesn't post because He prefers to communicate directly.    

BTW... I was watching 4 digital last night with my new indoor RS Bow tie antenna and didn't lose signal at all, but I'm up in Germantown where it didn't rain that hard.


[This message has been edited by Tom Snyder (edited 08-13-2002).]

[gparris]

 

Originally posted by Tom Snyder:
During storms, I've experienced temporary loss of signal on Cable, Satellite, and OTA. I've also experienced a loss of signal that happens between the Network and the affiliate...and  loss of signal on the radio (Usually AM, sometimes FM, and back in the old days CB). I've also had to come in the house to avoid getting rained on or struck by lightening. And every so often I've had it knock out my power altogether.

I guess the only thing I would say is being "crammed down our throats" is an occasionally stormy atmosphere that wreaks havoc on all sorts of stuff.

The one to complain to about that is someone that I know keeps an eye on this board, but doesn't post because He prefers to communicate directly.    

BTW... I was watching 4 digital last night with my new indoor RS Bow tie antenna and didn't lose signal at all, but I'm up in Germantown where it didn't rain that hard.


[This message has been edited by Tom Snyder (edited 08-13-2002).]

You are correct! Atmosphere is impossible to correct and predict. It is a fact of life and if your signal is messed up or gone due to a storm, so be it. I have had signal disturbances on FM, AM, analog and HD/DTV and so what? This isn't "crammed down our throats" at all, just that, when dealing with the electromagnetic spectrum, lightning disrupts things OTA and even cable gets its signals (ever see a cable co's backlot?) so remember that hand-held TV if the storm is a concern for you (watches,warnings,etc.)or put on that DVD you forgot about to watch while the storm is on - or just wait it out. Thunderstorms don't last that long,you know.Digital signals are complex and are more prone to screw up, especially in storms overhead,but the 99.999% of time digital is worth it. Storms are a fact of life. If all the cable companies got their signals from light fiber instead of sat and all routing same, aside for that home power generator you might have working, your TV will always work perfectly. But that won't happen anytime soon. Embrace digital in all its forms and deal with it!

[techguy1975]

 

Originally posted by gparris:
I have had signal disturbances on FM, AM, analog and HD/DTV and so what?

Analog signals are less prone to it though.  While flipping around, I saw analog 6 flicker a few times, most likely due to power disturbances, they were off for only a few seconds.  

Other than lightning hitting the transmitter, or power going out at the transmitter or messing up the STL, analog signals should be pretty good, even during a storm.  People are used to that, and may find it hard to accept that digital isnt as "durable"

[gparris]

 

Originally posted by techboywi:
Analog signals are less prone to it though.  While flipping around, I saw analog 6 flicker a few times, most likely due to power disturbances, they were off for only a few seconds.  

Other than lightning hitting the transmitter, or power going out at the transmitter or messing up the STL, analog signals should be pretty good, even during a storm.  People are used to that, and may find it hard to accept that digital isnt as "durable"

Digital has MORE CRAMMED INTO IT - note that!
More in the signal means more to get messed up, it is a physics thing. Analog is NOT more "durable" it is just that there is less to screw up and of course, LESS to desire in watching or listening to it, also. Unless you are advocating a "less is more" (with analog) AND you live in a tropical convergeance zone in the world where more thunderstorms can occur with greater frequency, the few precious minutes of digital signal loss during a storm here in Wisconsin are worth the price of having digital signals in any form.The nature of the spectrum used, the physics of it all specs out the waveforms and transmissions. Lets not all go back to AM radios and phonographs recordings. Instead, let digital grow to the max,whatever it takes,and then maybe we will all be wired up optically,with no sat streams,OTA, at all so that storms can come and go without our notice and digital,with its compression and complexity,can be fabulous all the time!

[Matt Heebner]

I've hade DirecTv for almost 5 years now, and last night was the longest I've ever had to go without satellite...about an hour. I did watch OTA HD, and had a few momentary drop-outs, but all in all not too bad.
Matt

[uplinkguy]

As my user name my reflect, I do a bit with satellite tv.  I operate a KU truck for hire.  I am currently waiting in the parking lot at UW-M waiting for the president to show up.

Directv is the most affected at home by severe weather because of the small wavelength of their signal.  The rain molecules are the perfect size to scatter the signal.  
The uplink for Directv is in LA.  If they receive a hard rain,  they will get wiped out as well.  Usually the uplink does not get affected as much because the uplink frequency is 1300 mhz higher than the downlink.  Thus the smaller wavelength will not be as easily scattered.

Almost all cable and broadcast networks originate on C-band.  C-band is nearly bullit proof from the rain.  The wavelength is much larger than KU and Directv.

Cable headends and affiliates usually get a reliable signal to pass through.  Directv also gets most of their signals from the original C-band signal.  One exception is HDNET.  They have a dedicated DS3 fiber from Denver.

NBC is the big exception for distribution.  They use digital signals on KU-band.  They are the most affected by rain fade.  NBC's main satellite at 103 degrees is close to Directvs' and Dish satellites.  When a storm moves through an area, typically they will have an outage at about the same time.

Rain fade can also occur when the receive site is in good weather.  A thunderstorm to the south of your location with 50,000+ ft thunder clouds can also knock down a signal.


So, unless a local station is providing a local show or replaying a syndicated program, most likely it is the satellite feed to blame.

The other possibility for local stations being affected is reflected power. If the rain is coming in sideways or hard enough into the antenna itself,  the tranmitter will detect the problem and either bring down the output power or automatically trip off for self-preservation.

I hope this helps and doesn't confuse anyone further.

happy viewing,
andy

[borghe]

Very informative, thank you. I would like to make mention to gparris though. Digital isn't more susceptible because there is "more there". There is actually just as much there for ATSC transmissions as there is for NTSC (6MHz). The problem is that digital is an all or nothing proposition. Because an analog signal actually carries parts of the audio and video wavelength in the signal, if parts of the signal gets through, parts of the waevlengths get through. A digital signal however has to be converted to the analog wavelengths. To do so you generally need most if not all of the binary information to do so.

 

Originally posted by uplinkguy:
One exception is HDNET.  They have a dedicated DS3 fiber from Denver.

haha.. so, short of a digger severing the line, HDNet is NEVER going down..  

[gparris]

 

Originally posted by borghe:
Very informative, thank you. I would like to make mention to gparris though. Digital isn't more susceptible because there is "more there". There is actually just as much there for ATSC transmissions as there is for NTSC (6MHz). The problem is that digital is an all or nothing proposition. Because an analog signal actually carries parts of the audio and video wavelength in the signal, if parts of the signal gets through, parts of the waevlengths get through. A digital signal however has to be converted to the analog wavelengths. To do so you generally need most if not all of the binary information to do so.

 haha.. so, short of a digger severing the line, HDNet is NEVER going down..  

Thank you for the correction. I was also trying to convey the fact digital is an "all-or nothing" thing with rain fade,etc. But due its nature, digital seems to carry the HD and SD info better so analog is not used effectively. Also, in my previous comment about fiber-optical cables being used, instead of satellite,OTA,etc., HDNET is "Exhibit A" so-to-speak, of what a completely digital world could do to avoid any transmission losses and fadeouts. If we ever get in a wartime situation or terrorists ever think its "cool" to hit our satellites, it is my feeling that all our data and entertainments would be affected. As we did with the Interstate Highway Commission in the 1950's, a "national security" sort of thing, so should all of our digital bitstreams be a fiberoptic in nature or at least, backup. The cost of such is less than the loss of satellite failure and should be looked into. Most business leaders and CEO's would wait until after the fact, and ask our gov't. for a bailout, but I can see that Mark Cuban did not go that route, he assured his business was not vulnerable to attack unless by a backhoe.

[borghe]

I don't think that land data lines are really any "safer" than satellite links. If anything they are maybe not even as safe. First, it would be very difficult for attackers to take out the satellites themselves (unless attacking from space, but I will leave the aliens out of this). So that leaves either interference, also more difficult on a wide scale, or destroying the dishes. Now destroying the dishes will certainly work fine and dandy, but you will have to visit each and every installation to knock down the dish. But wouldn't you have to visit each and every installation to knock out their data lines? Nope. Just hit the POP or NOC and you will cause some severe damage. Sure the data can be rerouted through a different cloud, but the resultant congestion would take its toll, and maybe even that segment of the network to boot.

Of course by now I've probably been flagged by the FBI, so I have to go..  

Seriously though, I think even in today's day and age, broadcasters think little about tactical level security (vs. just plain theft security), and I think that's a good thing. Like people kept saying on 9/11, let's not let recent events dictate our lifestyle. Besides, if Al Queda really wanted to knock Celebrity Boxing XXII off the air, would you stop them???

[uplinkguy]

Satellites aren't perfectly safe in space.  
Solar flares, meteor showers, and space junk can take out a satellite.

I can remember two tv satellites since 1996.  A Telstar satellite, (401? I think) got hit 3 weeks before the Packers went to the super bowl.  ABC affiliates, among others, had to scramble to find new space to do their live shots from the big easy.

Galaxy 4 got "lost in space" in May, 1998.  People may remember their nationwide pagers not working.  Another feed lost was weather info for tv stations using WSI graphics.  Luckily, I was in-between tv sations at the time and I didn't have to manually move many dishes to find the new sources of the feeds.

Most tv networks pay for a premium "platinum" user status to get back on the air quickly in case the satellite they are on is wiped out.  This enables them to bump off other users to get back up.

[mcq]

What's the answer to rainstorms and signal Dropout [DTV and BUA (Big Ugly Antenna) user here)........

DSL............

Turn off all of the TV's and surf the net! Besides, with all of the program rebroadcasts, I can usually pick up where I left off--the next day.

OH and by the way low flying airplanes, which have always jiggled our analog viewing, wrecks major havoc on the over-the-air digital signal.  Yikes

[uplinkguy]

mcq, don't forget about blimp fade....

I've been wiped out uplinking ball games by the good year blimp.  It scares the heck out of you when you think your amp is dying until you look out the window and see the darn thing to the south.

I also lost a bowling match several times on ESPN due to the satellite being located above a flight path to Loves Field in Dallas.

Fiber is great until the back hoe attenuation flares up.