Review CBS 58 DTV

[MesaV]

Now that CBS 58DTV has been on the air for two weeks and a lot of the issues have been resolved, maybe it's time for a review of CBS 58 DTV.  What were your expectations of CBS 58 DTV, were your expectations realized, what would you like to see, how can they improve, or are you still in front of your HDTV?  Since there are more that 85 members in this forum, it would make sense if we could keep our viewpoints brief, or not.

[Joseph S]

My expectations were
1)Solid 80+ signal in Milwaukee equivalent to the other stations
2)Original Aspect Ratios
3)DD sound
4)Zero multicasts when HD broadcast in effect
5)Send through all HD CBS content at all hours and upconvert all others between 7PM and 11:30PM
6) Meet or beat May 1.

Results:
1) Signal is all over the map and is not consitent at all. Strength is poor (55-72) and signal variance prevents proper buffering.
2) So far so good
3) None yet, unsure of CBS HD broadcast audio content
4) Outside of the poor signal, this is what I'm most upset about. Channel 46 is being simulcast all day long. The content on that channel is syndicated crap that I don't care for. Since there will be no HD content on it anyways, I find no need for this channel. If Channel 46 is to be digital it should have its own digital station. The result is constant breakups in the HD content. It also made the simulcasts of NCAA completely unwatchable. There was neither the bandwidth nor the signal strength for multiple instances of full motion video.
5) Good, it is actually a bonus that we get 24hr. However, the rapidly changing signal and simulcast really limit the usefulness.
6) Well done, thanks. Gives plenty of time to fix the current issues prior to that date.

[rnelson]

Initially I had a serious problem just getting the station.  I buckled under pressure and spent the money to replace the RS antenna in my garage with a real system.  Since then, I have not had any trouble getting the station here in Waterford.  I get a constant 88 with little fluctuation.  Occasionally, I will not get any Guide Data (will receive "Regular Programming") but for the most part, I get the Guide Data all the time.

I share the same concerns as others have pointed out about the Burn in problem with Logo's and the Black Side Bars and the problems they can cause.  I would feel better if progress was made that would minimize hardware problems with Rear Projection Systems.  Sound is OK but I would like to see capabilities from CBS that would allow DD5.1 sound on special events.

Over all, I am very pleased with CBS58's progress and we all appreciate the time Jim Hall has spent with our group talking about the issues.

Roy

[Gregg Lengling]

I realize some of you continue to say that the signal level of 1-1 ect is varying.  This is to be expected, if you read the transcrypt from last weeks chat with Jim Hall you will find that they are only running the exciter (no amplfier).  While they are licensed for 1MegaWatt ERP (effective radiated power), they are only running between 800 and 1000 watts to the feedline.  This gives an approximate ERP of 10KW.  This is 1/100 of the total licensed signal power.  So just remember Jim said they won't install the amplifiers and increase the signal until the density of Digital TV's increase.  I totally understand and agree with his position.  Running a 100,000 watt amplifier is an expensive option (electrical usage).  Even if the amplifier has a 75% efficiency rating (I'm not sure how effecient his amps will be), this is 150KW of electrical usage.  This is a huge expense...figure it out at about 5 or 6 cents per KWH this adds up real quick.  I am just very impressed with the way Jim is handling the DTV situation in Milwaukee.  They are technically ahead of the curve, even over 8 and 28 and willing to share the actual goings on and asking for input.  I say we should be very proud to have a great interaction with this station.

By the way I live in Cedarburg and have an outdoor fringe antenna (VHF and UHF) without a preamp feeding down 100' of RG59 to a 4 port splitter (goes to my other tv's also) and then another 75' of RG59 to my HDTV and have signals consitantly in the mid 70's to low 80's.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9

[mcq]

So Far, I have been absolutely pleased with TV58. As of March 1st, I have ended my self-imposed exile from 58 on my HDTV. (Yeah the wife sstttiiiilllll watches survivor!) I do see some tech glitches... that is to be expected! All in all, strength is good picture is great.

Thank-You TV58. Sorry for all the nastgyrams    

Badgers in HDTV... TWICE!!! - awesome!

Having friends over for the NCAA final... can't wait.

Patrick K. McHugh
(SouthSide MKE)

[This message has been edited by mcq (edited 03-26-2002).]

[Steve Mann]

I must also say that for the most part I am VERY happy with CBS58's DTV implementation. I have had very few issues on this end, the station locks in on my receiver faster than any other and I enjoy a lot of the CBS primetime HDTV schedule.

Jim Hall's participation here has been more than above the call of duty. It's really great to see his involvement, which only causes me to feel like I'm a part (albeit in a small way) of helping shape the Digital TV landscape for our area.

Thanks to Jim and everyone else involved at CBS58!


------------------
Steve M. Mann
Mits 65908
Panasonic TU-HDS20
Sony SAT-T60
My Home Theater
My Young DVD Collection

[Joseph S]

 

I realize some of you continue to say that the signal level of 1-1 ect is varying. This is to be expected, if you read the transcrypt from last weeks chat with Jim Hall you will find that they are only running the exciter (no amplfier). While they are licensed for 1MegaWatt ERP (effective radiated power), they are only running between 800 and 1000 watts to the feedline. This gives an approximate ERP of 10KW. This is 1/100 of the total licensed signal power.

However, I'm easily within 6-10  miles of the antenna and I get a fluctuating signal whereas people are claiming to receive the signal in Ill. It seems as if Milwaukee has  been placed in the outer circle of radial signal instead dead smack in the middle core. I get all the analogs perfect and the other digitals at 80+ which I believe are also around Capitol drive area. When I filter the VHF signal to recieve only a 25% on PBS I still get a solid signal on all 4 multicast channels. A 55-72% gets me intermittent results on CBS. Just hoping things improve and am encouraged that they at least made the deadline and are working at it daily.

Aside: The Latitude longitude specified at FCC site puts the antenna across the lake in Michigan instead of on Capitol drive.
Latitude: 43 deg N, 6 min, 42 sec
Longitude: 87 deg W, 55 min, 50 sec.)

(edit: PBS is VHF, NBC/CBS UHF)



[This message has been edited by Joseph S (edited 03-26-2002).]

[Gregg Lengling]

I don't know where you are plotting but I just took out my 7.5 minute map for the Milwaukee Quadrange and even without using the topo-aids the coordinates you give put it right where it belongs...not in the lake.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9

[Joseph S]

I used mapquest. It wasn't in the lake, but rather in Michigan. Do you have a relative street address?? Thanks.

[Gregg Lengling]

I used a Department of the Interior Geological Study map.  We use these for filing our FCC licenses.  It also shows WTMJ's 2 towers on the map.  Just West of the Milwaukee River and just north of Capitol Drive.  It must be about 700 East Capitol Drive.  I'd throw your MapQuest away....it doesn't work very well.


------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9

[Tom Snyder]

Hey Gregg...

You don't work for Ralph Evans, do you?

[Gregg Lengling]

No but I know Ralph and see him every so often.  I work for myself, I have a Communications Corporation in Milwaukee

------------------
Gregg R. Lengling
RCA P61310 61" 16x9

[Matt Heebner]

Kudos to CBS for getting the signal up before the deadline, and for already showing HD sports like NCAA basketball, and soon the Masters. (Believe it or not, I am having a golf party for the Masters! Just about everyone I know is a golf fan, and wants to see this in HD).
The level of involvement shown by Jim Hall and CBS proves that they are interested in the "goings on" of Milwaukee. (Note to Sean, No, we havent forgot about you. I am equally thankful that you have shown the interest  as well!)
I have not had the signal issues that others have so everything has been excellent on my end. I would like to see a Dolby Digital signal soon though, but that is my only complaint and Jim said that would be corrected soon. Keep up the great work and I hope that CBS continues to be a part of MilwaukeeHDTV.

Matt

[JimHall]

 

Originally posted by Joseph S:
 However, I'm easily within 6-10  miles of the antenna and I get a fluctuating signal whereas people are claiming to receive the signal in Ill. It seems as if Milwaukee has  been placed in the outer circle of radial signal instead dead smack in the middle core. I get all the analogs perfect and the other digitals at 80+ which I believe are also around Capitol drive area. When I filter the VHF signal to recieve only a 25% on PBS I still get a solid signal on all 4 multicast channels. A 55-72% gets me intermittent results on CBS. Just hoping things improve and am encouraged that they at least made the deadline and are working at it daily.

Aside: The Latitude longitude specified at FCC site puts the antenna across the lake in Michigan instead of on Capitol drive.
Latitude: 43 deg N, 6 min, 42 sec
Longitude: 87 deg W, 55 min, 50 sec.)

(edit: PBS is VHF, NBC/CBS UHF)



[This message has been edited by Joseph S (edited 03-26-2002).]

Dear Joe;

What you are probably experiencing with your signal is a multi-path problem or what we use to call ghosting in the old analog days.  Multi-path is a problem for the transmission scheme that the US adopted for DTV.  When multi-path occurs its causes a high data bit error rate in your tuner rendering the tuner incapable of deciphering the 1's & 0's making the picture stutter or go to black.  In the old days, ghosting caused you two images, in our new digital age in causes no-picture.  Considering that you live well within the signal coverage and near the tower farms, multi-path problems are going to occur more frequent.  I even have the problem in my home and I am about 15 miles from the tower site.  The best suggestion I can give you is antenna aiming, or in some cases de-aiming away from the secondary or multi-path signal.  This of course may help our CBS DTV signal, but may be unacceptable for the other two signals in our market of WTMJ and WMVS.  The best advice I can give you is experiment in all areas of reception, aiming, pre-amps, no pre-amps, reducing cable length from the antenna to set, keeping horizontal cable runs to a minimum, cable runs parallel to the tower sites, etc.....  Equipment manufactures are aware of this issue and they are looking for awyas to improve the receivers to deal with multi-path for the future.

If you have any other questions let us know.  Good luck experimenting.

[MesaV]

Expectations:
CBS signal would come busting into my garage attic like NBC and PBS.
HD programming would be true HD 1080i 16x9.
Everything would look like HDNet.

Realization:
Where is that signal?
Antenna is going on the garage roof.
Where is that signal?
Moved antenna away from the house.
There it is 94 and holding steady!

Low Points:
Multicasting.
Exciter.
Letting Jim play 20 questions on the first chat.

High Points:
Most OTA programming in HD.
Jim Hall



[This message has been edited by MesaV (edited 03-26-2002).]