The Tivo/DirecTV/Ch 58 Run-around

[Stanley Kritzik]

First -- the problem, with Ch58 HD and DirecTV's Tivo.  The lineup between the menu listings, such as 58-1, 58-2, etc. are one off from the actual programming.  So, menu item 58-1 actually is playing on 58-2, etc.

I started with the Tivo web site.  They referred me to DirecTV.

I tried DirecTV (level2, I guess), and it was "news" to the lady I spoke to.  She said the menuing info. came from the local station, anyway, and I should talk to the station.

I just don't have the time or temperament to carry it on to the local station, but I do have a few questions:

Is this problem affecting ALL DirecTV Tivos, or just the 10-250?

If all, does it affect any other brand using Tivo (if there are any), or just DirecTV?

Where, really, does the problem lie: Tivo, DirecTV or the station?

Is the guilty party aware of it, will they fix it, can we help put pressure on (please supply phone numbers, etc.)?

Thanks,

Stan

[Milwaukee12]

It must be a 58 problem because it happens to us to on our Samsung HD receiver.

[Stanley Kritzik]

The Good News is that it isn't me or my $1000 DVR.

The Bad News is that someone with courage has to convince CH 58 that they are screwing up everyone's DVR -- in a way that no other HD broadcasters are doing.

I'm exhausted just thinking about trying to convince CH 58 that they are doing something wrong.  Maybe there is someone up in the corporate ladder with a tech. background who will actually believe us, and get it fixed.  Maybe, but I'm not holding my breath.

Stan

[Stanley Kritzik]

It seems to me that the station grabbed ch. 1-1, for some temporary reason of potential advantage, even though they'll have to give it up in a few months, and even though the mismatch (vs. 58-1) screwed up those of us with Tivos.  It would be nice -- Mr. Hall? -- if the station would adopt the forthcoming rules and fix up their situation.

Stan

[borghe]

the problem only really affects HR10-250 users.. well, actually it affects any receiver not set to handle a channel on 1-1 (which shouldn't happen in North America), but the subchannel shifting problem seems to occur only on the HD Tivo.

It also seems to be happening primarily in other markets where weigel stations are using 1-1 (Chicago, Buffalo, etc).

I was just left a message the other night by a contact who says he has talked to head of TiVo technical support, they have verified the problem and supposedly will be working with 58 and other stations to fix it. It is a problem of 58 sending out bad/malformed/incorrect PSIP data.

Of course as Jimboy said, they will have to conform their data starting in 3 months anyway.

and yes, weigel did it so they would be the first channel in the program guide. who ever came up with that beauty better be in the f***ing unemployment line right now.

There is a possible fix for the Tivo, unfortunately it requires hacking your box and editing the system database. My unit has been fixed since the beginning of this season. I originally offered to help users mod their boxes as well, but due to lack of interest on most of your end and now lack of time on my end I will have to rescind that offer. Sorry. However, for those comfortable with taking apart and putting together computers as well as command line interfaces (DOS, Linux, etc) the procedure (including hacking your box) costs a grand total of $30 and takes around 1/2 an hour. You will need a file that is no longer available on your box (modified 3.1.5 kernel) but if you PM or email me I can send you the file. There is no sort of electrical work required, just putting the TiVo's hard drive in your computer, editing some files from within Linux, and then attaching the $30 USB Ethernet adapter to your network and accessing your box.

anyway, I have been asked by my contact to check within the next few days to see if it is fixed. I guess I will know immediately because as soon as it is fixed MY fix will need to be undone.

We'll have to wait and see.

[Stanley Kritzik]

So, someone at Weigel got cute and figured out how to (mis)use 1-1, since 1-1 isn't in use in the US, thereby inappropriately getting Weigel stations first in the lineup.  Meanwhile, they mess up Tivo.

If they don't want to fire the "genius", perhaps they'd turn him/her over to us Tivo owners for a "frank discussion".

But, as you say, the PSIP info. has to be correct in a few months, so I guess we can live with it, for now.

Thanks for the clarifying information.

Stan

[mrmits]

who ever came up with that beauty better be in the f***ing unemployment line right now.


LOL

yes its a pain in the butt having the subchannels screwed up, but if they have to conform in 3 months anyway, then i really dont wanna mess with opening the unit etc.  thanks for the offer though and for all your help with this issue.

btw...little off topic...your hdmi port working?  on my 2nd unit and so far it seems to work ok, but i think i like the look of the composite better.

[jimreichard]

I had a Hughes HD DirecTV box for over a year and have been receiving 58-1 with no problems. I just hooked up my brand new $1,000 HD TiVo last week and no more 58-1. The guide shows the channel but you can't get it. Says searching for antenna signal or something. If I hook up my old HD box, 58-1 works just fine. I noticed that channel 58 can be viewed on channel 1-1, but you can't record anything as there is no program information in the guide.  I talked to the DirecTV HD support today to a "Haley". She talked to her supervisor and told me that they have never heard of this problem but will check into it and "will get back to me". Yeh right!  One other note: They said I qualify for a CBS HD feed off the satellite so they hooked me up to that for another $2 a month but now I get CBS and can record it.

[dano]

Guys,

[dano]

People, it seems that there is a lot of misinformation out there.  First off, Weigel has stations only in Milwaukee, Chicago, and South Bend.  Second, this problem seems to be happening with any station that has it's PCIP set to 1 across the nation with this type of receiver.  Third, it's amazing that other receivers work fine with the supposedly incorrect PCIP (if PCIP was incorrect, it wouldn't come up anyway or at least not resembling what it should anyway).  Fourth, as for 58 choosing channel 1, the rules were not clear when this originally occurred and since their analog channel is outside of the core digital channels at analog 'death' time, it doesn't make a lot of sense to put their PCIP at 58-x.

If you look at whats happening, basically it looks like the receiver has code in it to take anything off of channel 1 and moves it to 46-x or 58-x, but it just so happens that the guide is on channel 1, whereas 58 HD and WMLW are on 1-1 and 1-2, hence you get the guide on 46-1 and 58-1, 58 HD on 46-2 and 58-2, and WMLW SD on 46-3 and 58-3.  This is called channel shifting and this code is probably dependant on where you are in the nation based on your zip code.
There are other strings and other sites, I think there is a Tivo yahoo group out there that has discussed this problem across the nation and back.
From what I've been able to gather, a rescan of the channels gets CBS 58 HD back on to the 1-x channels, but doesn't get the guide back, nobody has said what happens to the guide.
As for contacting Tivo or DirectTV, yes it is a problem when you see several posts from all over saying the same thing that they have never heard of this problem.
As for the changes coming up, yes they are coming, but you have to be careful on how to read them.  I am sure Weigel is looking at this already and hopefully they will come up with something that pleases everyone, but we all know you can't please everyone.

[Stanley Kritzik]

I am old enough to remember POTS (plain old telephone service).  You just picked up the handset, got a dial tone, and away you went.  Now, granted that HDTV, digital signals, Tivo, etc., are a lot more complex, but for these products to roll out to the masses, they have to mask the complexity and appear simple -- and correct -- to average users.

Everyone besides Weigel seems to have the mapping figured out, so I (naively, probably) think that Weigel, Tivo and DirecTV need to solve whatever issues are sitting there.

Stan

[borghe]

Originally posted by dano
People, it seems that there is a lot of misinformation out there.  First off, Weigel has stations only in Milwaukee, Chicago, and South Bend.  Second, this problem seems to be happening with any station that has it's PCIP set to 1 across the nation with this type of receiver.

The information I received on weigel stations was from other sources. However the fact remains that it is anyone that is using channel 1.

Third, it's amazing that other receivers work fine with the supposedly incorrect PCIP (if PCIP was incorrect, it wouldn't come up anyway or at least not resembling what it should anyway).

This is not true, other receivers, most notably the Dish 811, did not work with the channels set to 1.

Fourth, as for 58 choosing channel 1, the rules were not clear when this originally occurred and since their analog channel is outside of the core digital channels at analog 'death' time, it doesn't make a lot of sense to put their PCIP at 58-x.

Again not true. Channels 52-69 are covered under the analog shutoff through PCIP mapping. PCIP mapping is legal, and has been since early drafts of the ATSC committee, on channels 2-69. This means mapping 46 to 58 has ALWAYS been a legal setup. Mapping 46 to 1 has always been an invalid setup.

If you look at whats happening, basically it looks like the receiver has code in it to take anything off of channel 1 and moves it to 46-x or 58-x, but it just so happens that the guide is on channel 1, whereas 58 HD and WMLW are on 1-1 and 1-2, hence you get the guide on 46-1 and 58-1, 58 HD on 46-2 and 58-2, and WMLW SD on 46-3 and 58-3.  This is called channel shifting and this code is probably dependant on where you are in the nation based on your zip code.

Ok, obviously you have never seen what happens. Channel 46 is seen by the tivo. However it doesn't see anything on 46-1. only 46-2 and 46-3 (which were shifted up one respectively). When you do a channel scan it most certainly does see 1-1 and 1-2, and even correctly maps them and sticks them in the guide to 46-2 and 46-3 respectively.

58-1 and 58-2 come from TMS who sends guide data to DirecTV. TMS guide data says 58-1 is on 46-1 and 58-2 is on 46-2 (all the way up to 58-5 I believe).

There is no forcing anything out or anything like that. The only thing that IS happening is that the Tivo is not seeing the subchannels at their correct spots. The fact that this is happening on all weigel stations (as well as now supposedly other channel 1 stations) goes directly to the fact of bad PSIP data. Especially when the head of Tivo tech support (again, second hand) says they have already worked with one station to fix this EXACT problem.

There are other strings and other sites, I think there is a Tivo yahoo group out there that has discussed this problem across the nation and back.
From what I've been able to gather, a rescan of the channels gets CBS 58 HD back on to the 1-x channels, but doesn't get the guide back, nobody has said what happens to the guide.

Nothing will change the guide. The guide is hard and fast data from directv directly copied from TMS. The only thing that can change it is to go into the Tivo's database and manually change the TMS data to look at 46-2 and 46-3 respectively, which is what the current fix is (but requires a hacked unit)

As for the changes coming up, yes they are coming, but you have to be careful on how to read them.  I am sure Weigel is looking at this already and hopefully they will come up with something that pleases everyone, but we all know you can't please everyone. [/B]

hopefully..

while a lot of what I am saying regarding the channels is from second hand info on my part (though much of it coming directly from Tivo and other similar places), how the tivo works I am VERY familiar with as I am the one who came up with the existing fix in the first place. tivo is doing all mappings, forced by TMS or PSIP mapped, correctly. It is actually doing it so correctly that it maps the incorrect subchannel to the correct mapping (1-1) and can see it perfectly. This is something in the PSIP level causing the tivo to think 46-1 is empty and the subchannels start at 46-2.

I didn't mean to say that it is directly caused by 1-1, and if I did I apologize. But this is definitely something caused in the way that 1-1 is implemented or in something similar that all of the stations in the coutry using 1-1 are doing.

and if it is something directly related to 1-1 or the implementation of 1-1, that makes it all the more frustrating seen as though they should never have been on 1-1 in the first place.