Receiving all local digital channels, including FOX 6, in Brookfield

[Slot Car Driver]

Background info:
I live in Brookfield near Butler, just south of Hampton Ave. & 135th Street.  Got my HD receiver in December (Dishnetwork model 811) and HDTV in January (Toshoiba 34HFX83).  I have a large VHF/UHF antenna (the largest antenna from Mills Fleet Farm) in the attic pointing straight east.  I have a Channel 3 modulator, connected to one of the Dish 811 audio/video outputs, into a Channel Master, Channel 3 Join-Tenna with the attic mounted VHF/UHF antenna so that the satellite feed and all local analog channels are available on all of the TV's.  Feeds 7 TV's and 3 VCR's, no preamps or amps on the antenna.  All of the local analog channels and signal from the Dish 811 into the channel 3 modulator come in very clear on all of the TV's and VCR's.

Found this web site in January.  I have read the many posts about receiving CBS58 digital and FOX6 digital and all the problems.  The Dish 811 had the mapping problem receiving digital channel 1.1, 1.2, etc., but has been fixed with a software update from Dishnetwork.  Did not like being able to receive FOX6 digital, so I did something about it.  I purchased a Radio Shack Model 15-2160 UHF antenna after reading on another Forum that someone found this antenna worked very well and only cost about $25.00.  Mounted this antenna in the attic pointed northeast towards Channel 6's studio (present location of digital antenna). Could only receive FOX6 digital if all conditions just right (weather, snow on or off roof, etc.), not acceptable.  When the weather got warmer for a few days in February, I mounted the Radio Shack UHF antenna on a tripod on the roof.  Connected the Radio Shack UHF antenna and the large VHF/UHF antenna in the attic through an A-B switch to the Dish 811.  I could now receive FOX6 digital all the time, but with the VHF/UHF antenna in the attic had problems with CBS58 digital and WB18 digital, again weather had to be just rigth.  Still not acceptable.  I had an old Wineguard VHF/UHF antenna just laying in the attic.  I removed that antenna from the attic, cut the UHF section off of it, removed the VHF elements from the UHF section, shortened the UHF section, and moved the first 2 UHF elements to the places where the VHF elements use to be.  The antenna is very similar looking to a Wineguard model HD9095P.  After some testing, I found that the modified Wineguard UHF antenna has a much higher gain and is more directional than the Radio Shack UHF antenna.  I now have the Radio Shack UHF antenna pointing east to receive digital channels 22, 25, 28, 34, 35, 40, 46, and 61 (analog 30, 24, 4, 12, 36, 55, 58, and 18 respectively), the Wineguard UHF antenna to receive digital channel 33 (FOX6) (also mounted on the tripod on the roof), and the VHF/UHF attic antenna to receive digital channel 8 (analog 10).  I have all 3 antennas connected to the Dish 811 through an A-B-C swith.  The signal level on all of digital channels varies from about 80 (digital FOX6) to about 95 (most of the other channels).  I am using the DVI output on the Dish 811 to the Toshiba HDTV and the Toslink Dolby Digital to a JVC amplifier with 5.1 Dolby Digital sound.  Not the best way to watch TV, but at least I can watch all the local digital channels.  Now if only CBS58 would fix their popping audio!

[borghe]

the problem with Fox6 for those of us in the city with rooftops apparently isn't low power or antenna height but specifically placement. Our antenna's have to be pointed in such a way to hit MATC and east capital. For most directional antennas this is puts Fox6's current location outside the radius of what our antennas would be able to receive. a rotor would recitfy it, of which I have been assured that with a rotor I could get a trong, possibly even 100 signal strength on fox6. I haven't gone with a rotor for three reasons.

1) the goal of my antenna was to create a "cable-like" atmosphere for my upcoming HD-Tivo (hard date of two weeks max.. arrggh). One with no messing around with rabbit ears for optimal signal strength. By using a rotor for Fox6, in theory I wouldn't be able to get anything from the community tower while viewing 6 and might not be able to get anything from east capital. which doesn't matter if I were only viewing Fox6, but if I am Tivo'ing something on another channel it would make the Tivo altogether useless.

2) When Fox6 moves to their new tower, that complicated investment will become worthless as I will get the same signal from them as WTMJ etc.

3) Supposedly sometime in the meantime DirecTV will launch a national Fox channel giving access to all markets with an O&O fox station (of which Milwaukee is one).

Now of course all three of these reasons are tentative, but as I went ahead with that plan they were supposedly "imminent". Hopefully one of these occurs, I will get an ED/HD Fox feed, and all of this will be water under the bridge.

as for you, I am assuming that your position allows you to see all three tower locations with relative ease...I always wondered how much it would suck to live directly between the community tower and east capital... man that would be harsh....

[summerfun]

WOW, I can't believe the crap and money you have to go through to get OTA signals. You guys should be the poster child for TWC. I bet they would pay you to just advertise how hard you have to work to NOT have cable.

[borghe]

for me it wasn't any effort at all.. as for expense, it was $250, which not only gets me HD channels, but analog locals to any room I want them in, not to mention I am in a duplex with the inlaws, so it gets them local analog and digital for free. So basically it was no effort on my part and with just two extra TVs hooked up in any fashion I make my money back in less than a year...

also, with my DirecTV box being replaced by an HD Tivo later this month, note that I get ALL local digital channels for free. I could quit DirecTV tomorrow and still get 4, 10, 12, 18, 24, 55, 58, etc in HD (when available) for free.

I fail to see where I have spent a lot of time or money in this. The money will be recouped in less than a year comipared to cable and the time was like 2 hours out of the installer's day.

I've been on the phone with TWC more than that in the past year alone. And last time I checked just local HD from TWC will cost you what I paid just in one year, let alone a lifetime worth of service.

[summerfun]

We have all had this discussion before. There is no way I will be convinced that buying equipment that is being replaced as quickly as this has been is cheaper than renting.

In the past two years, I have gone from:

SD Box
SD DVR box
HD Box
HD DVR box (soon)

At $7.95 per month rental, I promise you I am years ahead of break even if I had to purchase all these. Not to mention, this also includes maintenance and I have had to switch boxes out, so that makes it even better.

No antennas required, no signal strength issues, no satellite companies to deal with. One company, one great service and I get analog free to all the other TV sets in the house.

I know some people will complain about TWC service, but I have had nothing but fantastic service from them. Many others would also agree.

[borghe]

yes, we have been through this, and we have also been through that

In the past two years, I have gone from:

SD Box
SD DVR box
HD Box
HD DVR box (soon)

does not describe the average consumer, cable or otherwise. all one has to do is look to digital cable numbers (or lack thereof) to see that most cable subs get one box and don't upgrade until they either have problems or they are upgraded by the cable co.

also, we are not talking about $8/month. Last time I checked HD locals on cable cost you $20/month plus an additional $8/month per additional TV. Also let's not foget that by the end of this year FCC mandates that 50% of all sets larger than 36" must come with an OTA tuner. and by the end of next year 100% of all set >36" and 50% of all sets >13".

If I am already getting HD on DirecTV, spending $250 for an OTA antenna will ALWAYS be cheaper than cable. gparris and I have already agreed on this in another thread.

edit - also, what equipment is being replaced? My Hughes gets moved into the bedroom when I get my Tivo and I get free HD locals in the bedroom.....

do you get to keep your replaced equipment from TWC and continue to use it for free?

[summerfun]

Didn't mean to open this can of worms back again. But just to clarify one point you made. The basic package is only $12.95 per month for all the analog channels for every TV in the house. If you want local HD channels, you need to rent a box for $7.95 to put local HD channels on each HD TV you own. You can still get all the analog channels on the other TV sets.

For someone that wants to do it inexpensive, they can spend a total of $20 per month for HD on their main HDTV and free analog channels on all the other TV sets in the home.

However, not many HD people go that route, so it is not much of a comparison. Most HD type customers are high tech early adopters of new technology and would be more like me and have rented rather than purchased all the different boxes over the past two years and would be way ahead of the game. How much are you going to have to spend on an HD TIVO and their monthly service?

Let's just agree to disagree and let this post die..:wave:

[Matt Heebner]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but isn't the TWC HD DVR rental  fee gonna be more like $12.95/mo ?

Anyways I will be considering the whole locals with HD box only from TWC for the football season IF I can't get the Packers in HD any other way (which it might be).

Matt

[summerfun]

Originally posted by Matt Heebner
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but isn't the TWC HD DVR rental  fee gonna be more like $12.95/mo?

I don't think that they have given a price yet, but the SD and HD boxes both rent for $7.95 and the fee to upgrade to SD DVR is $6.95 more, so we are hoping that the HD DVR upgrade will be the same.

If you had TIVO with TWC you would still have the $7.95 box rental from TWC, plus the purchase of a TIVO box plus the monthly TIVO subscription of $12.95 per month, maybe more for HD, not sure. Plus you would only have a single tuner. The TWC HD DVR is a dual tuner so you can watch one show and record another.

If you're on TWC, there is no question; the extra $6.95 is a much better deal than TIVO. As a matter of fact, I think TIVO is in real trouble as cable companies add DVR to their boxes. My parents have TIVO and have every intention of leaving when their cable company provides a DVR in their area.

[borghe]

Originally posted by summerfun
As a matter of fact, I think TIVO is in real trouble as cable companies add DVR to their boxes.

maybe maybe not.. there are a couple of things to take into consideration

1) software licensing. Tivo makes an undiscolsed amount from licensing out there software to other companies, the movst prominent of these DVD recorder manufacturers and Sony in there upcoming DVR.

2) Open Cable. In theory once Open Cable hits, and Tivo can release an Open Cable DVR for less than the cost of say two years of a box rental, Tivo will be more attractive than cable. If I could get an Open Cable compatible Tivo for say $150, it would be an instantly better investment than renting a cable box for $8/month. In theory also, an Open cable box could also be used for DirecTV and Echostar, if they go over to Open Cable as they have been hinting at.

3) either the above or just start cable box manufacturing and strike up deals with the cable MSOs.

4) Continued DirecTV partnership or merger. pretty much says it all.

Not is completely safe, but they could have a bright future if they played their cards right. They are a household name right now and there are many options that could keep them viable and competitive for years to come.

Only time will tell... They've done a good job at predicting the market so far, now they just have to keep up with the changes the market is experiencing.

[tazman]

OUUUUUCH you guys.  Hey if you want to have a flamming war lets talk about Charter:eek: :guns: :bang: :mad:   Anything other than cable is worth the expense for me, because Charter is all that's out by me:(

[summerfun]

We seem to have found ground to agree. TIVO may do well if they change their business model. Become a licensing company to other manufactures of DVR. Also strike up deals where they are the provider of the DVR to satellite and cable companies.

I still don't see why I would pay them $150 for a DVR/open cable box that replaces my cable DVR/cable box and still pay them $12.95 for a subscription. The cable company is renting me a DVR/cable box for $12.95 including the subscription.

Hey, are we having fun yet :wave:

[gparris]

I agreed that given what borghe and I do for subcription programming a month, we are about even in monthly subcription fees and that only!:D

But I DO agree with summerfun that the upfront costs of purchasing and repurchasing STBs is a waste of money.

When I DID have Directv, I spent $250 for the first Tivo, a Phillips, on sale, and then a Sony Tivo for upstairs, for $400, tax and extended warranties not included on either. When my Phillips went out I was told to send it back for warranty and then I realized I had no satellite service. I bought the Sony, waited for the Phillips to be fixed so I would have Directv service again. Then the Sony went to the family room and the repaired Phillips to the master bedroom. Thank God I still kept my basic cable service! Otherwise, I would have been without anything to watch.


:mad:

So when I moved to an apartment following my home sale and waited for the new house to be built, I had no choice except cable and while I lived there, discovered the DVR from TWC and the HD channel selection.
 
Guess what?

I always had service and when the DVR box's hard drive stuck during a power problem (using an APC protector) at the apartment, all I did is swap it out for a new one the next day...no warranty to honor and wait for a fixup and no service (or buy another as I had to with Directv when I bought the Sony) with TWC.   Same with the SA3100HD to 3510HD swapouts. No charge.. no waiting, no lack of service....no problem!

As far the OTA thing and borghe's investments in hardware, let him have his fun. I have learned with installations I have done for friends, family and referrals, that once a customer buys equipment and gets it installed, they seldom leave the provider, at least if they've not got that "three rooms free" promo from Dish or Directv.  If he lives in line of sight or close enough by for good OTA and believes what he is doing is to his benefit, so be it.

In Kenosha, I would seek out maybe Chicago stations if I wanted to go OTA for HD only...but for me and my neighbours, the monster I would have to put up would be a headache for us all. :bang:

Thankfully, TWC is around for HD locals, my analogue Chicago stations, and 12 HD channels, 13 if you count Fox Sports Net HD.
For me to cough up TWO GRAND for HD Tivos to record for both HDTVs, for what, 6 HD channels on Directv of Dish, I'd have to have my head examined first!!!

:rofl:

[borghe]

Originally posted by gparris
But I DO agree with summerfun that the upfront costs of purchasing and repurchasing STBs is a waste of money.

I truly get a kick out of how often you guys go through boxes supposedly.. I mean I feel like I stay on cutting edge technology, and I have "replaced" exactly one DirecTV box since I got my service 6-7 years ago.. That is there is one box I have purchased (my original) that is no longer being used. Every other box I have purchased (3) is still in use. Even more, when I get my Tivo the total replacement count will go up to two when my living room tivo is replaced. My HD box will go in the bedroom, and even the old Tivo will likely remain in service upstairs as my father-in-law ditches TWC. But even couting the SD Tivo as a total loss that is two boxes replaced in 7 years.

Thankfully, TWC is around for HD locals, my analogue Chicago stations, and 12 HD channels, 13 if you count Fox Sports Net HD.
For me to cough up TWO GRAND for HD Tivos to record for both HDTVs, for what, 6 HD channels on Directv of Dish, I'd have to have my head examined first!!!

:rofl:

If we are going to continue this debate in every other thread, can we at least start comparing apples to other apples. If you get any satellite HD receiver you also have access to loca HD OTA channels. At bare minimum in the Milwaukee area with no effort you can get 4, 10, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 55, and 58. If you are lucky you can also get 6. But we will just say the average person gets 4, 12, 36, and 58. On DirecTV you get HBO, Showtime, HDN, HDNM, ESPN, Discovery, and the special event channel (PPV, NFL, NBA, etc). By my count that is 11 full-time HD channels compared to 12 on TWC.. more to be sure (by one), but I fail to see the substantial amount more. And this doesn't include the extra 12 DTV channels we get for free over the air. apples to apples, not this 13 channels to 6 you keep mysteriously talking about.

also, what chicago stations does TWC give you?

[gparris]

Quote from borghe:

If we are going to continue this debate in every other thread, can we at least start comparing apples to other apples. If you get any satellite HD receiver you also have access to loca HD OTA channels. At bare minimum in the Milwaukee area with no effort you can get 4, 10, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 55, and 58. If you are lucky you can also get 6. But we will just say the average person gets 4, 12, 36, and 58. On DirecTV you get HBO, Showtime, HDN, HDNM, ESPN, Discovery, and the special event channel (PPV, NFL, NBA, etc). By my count that is 11 full-time HD channels compared to 12 on TWC.. more to be sure (by one), but I fail to see the substantial amount more. And this doesn't include the extra 12 DTV channels we get for free over the air. apples to apples, not this 13 channels to 6 you keep mysteriously talking about.

First of all, I do NOT live in Milwaukee or anywhere near it. So I do NOT get OTA. Period. I live on a slope of a hill with the rest of my neighbors in a new community, 35 miles from those digital stations and do NOT want to fight with an antenna-and-fight I will to get anything (and have tried in vain, so have my neighbors) for OTA anything, much less HD locals. We do not have your luck, Ok?
Not everyone is as fortunate at being close to that antenna farm near Capitol Drive as you are....:mad:  What "average person"?

As for Dish and Directv subscriptions, if you opt for HBO, Showtime subscriptions, then add the 4-HD channel package for $10.99 (vs. $6.95 for TWC) you get Discovery HD, HDNET, HDNET movies and ESPN-HD and that is all!:D  That is SIX that you get when you SUBSCRIBE and pay the standard monthly fees!

Including PPV channels in the list of "what you get" is not allowed as it is not a monthly subscription...please, let's talk about apples and apples, really! You mentioned we had the same monthly bills and I agreed, so let's keep it that way. Geez!
 Directv does have a special channel that is on like TWC's channel 540 for Fox Sports Net, but it is not on full-time so I make the total HD channels from TWC, full time, by a monthly subscribtion basis, to a even TWELVE  to Directv or Dish's SIX and only SIX:rock:

I salute the patience and diligence the forum members take at aiming their antennas, buying their equipment and resolving issues. Good for them.
When TWC had practically nothing for HD channel offerings, that is all we had. But not now. That was then. This in now.

The forum member in Jackson would appreciate TWC over Charter cable in a heartbeat, but he is not lucky like us for a service area. Many in our SE Wisconsin area do not have the ability to have TWC and go the route borghe goes. It is great to have the ability to do that when there are no other options available.

Good luck on your HD Tivo delivery, borghe, you deserve it!;)