Direct TV HD channel capacity ?

[Scott]

Question for the knowledge base here:

I have a Direct TV system that now has a triple LNB dish.  How many HD channels can Direct TV realistically offer up to a subscriber with that type of normal setup?

I read on this board that the HD channels take up a lot of bandwidth on the satellite, and assume that there are some constraints.

Does the current Direct TV satellite technology allow them to offer maybe 20 or 30 HD channels with today's hardware?

Part of the prompting of this was watching NASCAR at my sister's house today on TimeWarner Faux 6 widescreen, and seeing the amount of HD channels that are available on cable when you count the locals.  

Wondering if Direct TV (or Time warner for that matter) are limited in the amount of HD channels they can offer given their current equipment.

[Gregg Lengling]

I don't have the diffinitive answer, but I'm sure you could find it with a Google search on the web.  I know that an HD channel takes up 4 to 6 times the bandwidth of a regular channel on the satellite.  What Directv has been doing and planning to help the capacity is using satellites with directional transponders to pin-point areas of the country.  These units are used to carry the locals as there is no sense beaming Milwaukee to San Fransico and the likes.  This gives them more Nationwide channel space.

[gparris]

Technology changes everything. One year we are getting more HD from satellite and cable touts local HD networks. Currently, cable has the edge on local HD network delivery, which adds to higher HD channel counts, with emphasis on the word, local.

Directv is offering CBS and soon, FOX, but these are not for everybody nor are you getting local HD channels from your city. This action by them prompts me to think that cable has finally got Directv a little concerned about the HD locals they may never be able to carry due to bandwidth and current satellite capacity. Right now, Directv is more concerned about getting every market it can with local channels-SD, of course, and this is probably undermining into their ability to delivery HD locals, as far as I understand it.  

But technology can come in and change things. 10 years ago, if you told your neighbor that your 18 inch dish was going to deliver you 200+ channels, they'd think you were crazy. In other words, I wouldn't be a bit suprised if, by the end of this decade, satellite delivery of local HDTV channels (WTMJ,etc.) occurs due to some unheard of technology.

On the cable side, when my installer came to add an amp to my system, he told me that TWC was not out of bandwidth or space, just watching market trends and "must carry" channels for additional utilization of space.
His opinion and understanding was that more HD channels were on the way for cable, no problem, but ESPN-HD, the most requested channel, could occur due to market pressure and of course, getting the "mouse" to demand  less and/or deliver more HD .:cool:
 More HD channel additions were probably going to appear as more HD rental boxes in our market area increase, which, by the way, are, in his installation experience.

Satellite will probably battle cable's local HD delivery with more HD channels like TMC HD, Cinemax HD and Starz! HD along with Bravo HD that are not carried by either major sat or cable player  but are available now and other HD channels planned for 2004 launch.

For satellite, I remember reading that it took 2 HD channels per transponder, then technology got better, now 3 HD per, maybe its even better now. So ...

Technology just gets better...and competition just pushes the envelope!:wave:

[Matt Heebner]

DirecTV is on the verge of launching 7S (I think the name is 7S, maybe 4S), a new satellite with brand new lossless compression technology. Total capacity is about 500 HD channels. On AVS Forum, I've even heard rumours that Directv will be offering HD locals, to atleast the top 50 markets, by 2005.

Even though all the bandwidth won't be used for HD, it is very promising that Directv is looking to the future.


Matt

[mhz40]

Originally posted by Matt Heebner
DirecTV is on the verge of launching 7S (I think the name is 7S, maybe 4S), a new satellite with brand new lossless compression technology.
Matt

Huh?  Lossless compression?  Don't be fooled.  Every technology in the mpeg world creates loss...  it's just figuring out what you can skip without the majority of eyeballs noticing.  For example, take WDJT-DT:  Looks good most of the time at their 15mb/s data rate, untill you get some really fast .  Same with mp3's... anyone listen to files encoded any lower than 128kb/s?
I heard on HDNet's coverage last weekend  that one of the dish venders is migrating to mpeg-4 , which was initially developed for the internet.  Even if they do get the extra bandwidth, paying for the reception gear (upgrade again?) will be partially on their customer's dime.

MHz40

[borghe]

capacity is hard to figure.. it depends on a lot of variables.

right now directv using QPSK modulation can fit about 35Mbps of bandwidth on a single transponder. From all three current satellites they have 46 transponders available. From the existing three satellite positions, that is all we will ever see unless Dish graciously gives up some of their transponder licenses for use.. However, of those 46 transponders currently 6 are used as spot beams thus negating any national channels. So 40 available transponders currently exist for national broadcasts. That will also go down once 7S is launched. However even with it going down we will get some space back as more locals are combined into a single spot transponder. But we'll deal with that once we know exactly how many transponders on 7s will be used at spot beams.

so 40 * 35 = 1.4Gbps of total bandwidth. That is objective one in figuring out channel capacity.

Objective 2 is figuring out what compression rate you will use. Currently, DirecTV is compressing SD to an average of 1GB per hour (this is not a guess but an actual observation). This comes out to roughly 2.2Mbps. HD I don't have an actual bitrate for but they are putting 2 channels per transponder so we will just say HD is at 17.5Mbps. This means they are currently able to fit 15 SD channels per transponder or 2 HD channels per transponder for a total of 600 SD channels or 80 HD channels.

Now it should be noted that locals do have an impact on these numbers. Well, not so much the numbers as occupying some a lot of this space that I am figuring out. As DirecTV moves more transponders to spot beam transponders that impact will go down though. To explain spot beam, basically you are able to point that transponder at specific areas of the country. The benefit to this is that you can send out data on the transponder multiple times. So transponder 4 might have spots pointed at chicago, new york, LA, and dallas. All 4 of those areas will see the full transponder. This effectively creates 60 channels on a single transponder vs. the original 15 I mentioned. The catch is that no markets other than those 4 will be able to see that transponder.

This has gotten a little technical but hopefully you can get through it. The bottom line is that the technology is in place to currently remain competitive with cable, and their is more technology both coming (7s, sat 72.5, spaceway) as well as likely technology not even mentioned yet (high powered 8PSK, MPEG4) that will keep satellite competitive for many years to come.

mhz40 - voom is going to MPEG4 later this year... but as for the "on the customer's dime", well, aren't all upgrades from everyone, including cable, all on the customer's dime? The difference for satellite is that the customer pays for it upfront, and with cable they charge you $8/month and don't waive the first box's fees. When (and I mean when) cable goes to MPEG4 (eventually everyone will), it too will be on the cutomer's dime, it just won't be as obvious because that dime has been paid for ever since the customer has had cable.

I'm not bashing anything, but the customer will always pay no matter what, whether DBS or cable.. These companies aren't in the business of giving stuff away absolutely free.

[mhz40]

Great post.  IMO, very accurate and informative... and yes, the consumer's dime will be spent either way (with cable box rental or new gear with satellite).  The difference is on one hand you throw out a $600 receiver and buy another... while on the other hand, you trade in one $8/mo box for another.
Now, if you already have had that $600 HD receiver for over 6 years, you are ready for a new one and just about ready to break even with the cable rental fee, assuming you didn't invest that $600 in bio-technology or Microsoft.
MHz40

[Matt Heebner]

I just signed up to get a brand new HD STB from Directv for another 12 mo commitment, and $99, to be installed this Saturday.  Not too bad.....
And after the 12 mo is up....I own  the equipment. Thats the equivalent of apprx. 12 mo. of a HD cable box rental.


Matt

[borghe]

which is what has been said in another thread... The $600 equipment point is slowly going out the window. Average existing users who have had DirecTV for at least two years can get the equipment for $100, new users who are ok with leasing the equipment can get it for $100 plus $10/month (I think) from Best Buy, or any old Joe on the street can get an existing box (box only) or new box (box and dish for new subs) for $400.

[Matt Heebner]

I have read that newer Directv subscribers are getting a $199 HD deal, with a 12 month agreement.
You have to be a current subscriber for at least 6 months to get the $199 deal.
I've been a Directv subscriber for almost 8 years now. I remember whan I had to buy the HD STB for $500 (open box special), and the 3 LNB dish for $150, not including any type of installation.....which I did myself.

Hell, in the beginning 1 room was usually free with a 2 year commitment, but if you wanted 2 or 3 rooms, the price increased dramatically. I think 2 rooms was around $500, and the third room was close to $1000 installed.
Now for as little as $99, or $199 you get the STB, the 3 LNB dish, and a multiple room installation. Not too shabby.......

Matt

[mhz40]

While I agree hardware is coming down, the average Joe (like me) surfs the web for pricing.  Even on DirectTV's own site they are selling  a 3 lnb package & receiver to current customers  for $399... plus tax, plus shipping and a 12 month commitment.

That's not bad, but it's still does not include the cost related to retiring your old receiver.  I know I'm in the business, which is certainly skewing my thoughts on this somewhat, but still; IMO, cable has the edge since you can swap/replace/upgrade the gear at no charge down the road.

The lowest DTV package + HD runs $51/month, while cable's lowest digital package is $63 including the HD package, local broadcast HD channels and the converter charge.  With these numbers, it would take you a minimum of 35 months to hit the payback point after upgrading an existing dish system from SD to HD.

My point is there's really no huge difference in cost of programming... the difference is in the philosophy of the individual consumer.

It's actually kind of funny.   Years ago the dish was hammering on the channel count... more channels more channels more channels!  Now that cable has them beat (and will continue to grow the HD offerings), they are on another blitz.... cheaper, cheaper, cheaper!  Cable is a porker!

I must admit the dish folks do have a huge marketing budget and use it creatively.  Maybe they should skim some of that money off to provide free gear and programming to the thousand or more local schools and municpalties in the area, like your local cable company has been doing for over 24 years (including broadband internet access since it's become available).  Naw... on second thought maybe they should step-up and provide free service calls to their customers as a first baby step.

MHz40

[borghe]

a couple of things.. first, you aren't including franchise fees, of which satellite has none. we'll even be generous and just round up to an even $65. Second, Total Choice WITHOUT locals is only $38. Why pay for locals with only an HD box when you can pull them OTA for free. So we are looking at $49 compared to (roughly) $65, or $16/month. That puts us at a 25 month (2 year) recoup for the satellite hardware at $400, about a year exactly at $200, and just shy over 6 months at $100. Not to mention you will gets ALL local channels digitally (TWC doesn't have 18, 24, 36, or 55) and ESPN-HD.

Again, I'm not really trying to say which is better or not (though any one who reads this board knows my feelings). All I am doing here is again reiterating that cost between HDTV on DirecTV and cable is pretty much a wash..

However, if you want to attack dish on the marketing front.. first, I thought cable was pretty much required to provide various free services to schools and public facilities as part of the compensation for laying cable across the city's ground everywhere. Last time I checked I didn't think they were doing it out of the "goodness" of their heart. (That along with franchise and local fees). As for free service calls, DirecTV does give free service calls if they messed up the install, and if the install is good on a dish, you almost never need a tech to come back out ever again.

but enough bickering.. we always seem to go round this way...

peace

[gparris]

With my 2 HDTVs, which will more of a "norm" in the future as HDTV set pricing continues to drop, I have no choice to cheer cable HDTV offerings as the equipment cost was way too expensive with satellite for me.  

Directv offered me nothing cheap nor free when I asked for new service at my new home to get my 2 PVRs and 2 HD STBs, so I went the cable route. As for the new HD PVRs coming out soon, I will have to spend two THOUSAND dollars for 2 HD Tivos to eliminate the cable factor as these are priced, rather than just wait for TWC to rent them to me for $7.95/month each. For those that say the price will go down on these HD Tivos, good for you-I want to record my 13 HD channels now, not wait for them to drop to say, $500 next year, and I would still have to do battle with an outside antenna in a neighborhood whose covenants deny high towers due to association clauses to get local HD. Why bother? Why spend so much to save money on a cable rental?  Does Directv have an upgrade clause on its STB's like Verizon Wireless has "new every two"? I think not. TWC does...I went from a SA3100HD to a Pioneer 3510HD with no charge or hassle!

Further, if my cable box goes out, I just get another exchanged for free and I have little disruption. When my DirecTivo died and I had to either wait for it to be fixed under warranty or buy another one right away, I had no service whatsoever...same with my DTC-100's "death". But with cable, you can have your cable (with a fresh new box) up and running in a matters of hours with no hassle. But that is just my experience and my opinion.

I like satellite because it keeps competition up so we get more HD and better service, not because I want to repeat its past personally-experienced, nightmares.:rolleyes:

[Gregg Lengling]

Originally posted by gparris

and I would still have to do battle with an outside antenna in a neighborhood whose covenants deny high towers due to association clauses to get local HD.
 

You should do some research on a law that was passed a couple years ago.  It pre-empts zoning covenents that restrict outdoor placement of antennas and satellite dishes.  These can no longer be regulated to a zero tolerance.  They have to be allowed to allow you to receive local and satellite programming.  There are also rules in place that cover this for apartment renters also.


Just wanted to give you heads up.  It is no longer possible for these subdivisions to ban antennas.
:guns:

[gparris]

Thanks for the clarification. In order to receive any HD signals in my area, which is definitely not on a hill, rather, more of the bottom of a slow downgrade, I would have to put something up similar to what you, Gregg, have in your backyard and I do not want to spend the dollars to do it OR get it and alienate my neighbors at the same time. :blush:  I'd hate to see that tower in ANYONES backyard,  IMO.

We do, allow any 18-24 inch (oval) satellite dish installation, just not those ugly (C-Band?) black inverted umbrella-type dishes. :p
 
I am glad most folks with (smaller) OTA antennas living closer to Milwaukee than I can use for their DTV combo box to get OTA local HD networks and HD sat offerings  because I could not in my previous home and will not now, not just due to cost, but the annoyance factor, again IMO.

:cool:

Additionally, when I had both TWC for local HD networks and the HD Directv box using my old, now dead DTC-100, I had the best of both worlds, of course, this was  before TWC upped the HD channel availability.
My cost, even now, would be about the same with this combination if I wanted to go thru it all again and shell out the money for new boxes again, which I won't.
I calculated it both ways and came up with the same combo pricing for billings as before:
All-TWC-only billing and one bill instead of the TWC/Directv bills. But this is my experience and I have 2 HDTVs, which changes things, and again, this could become more of a "norm" in the future as prices drop for HDTV sets.