New MPTV digital information

[ReesR]

I have some news that may have some far reaching effects.

I just spoke with Mike, the engineer who has been deeply involved at Channel 10/36 digital efforts.  Please understand he had no decision responsibilities in what is being shared here.

In our conversation, a number of concepts were shared which, by sharing them here, might help to deal with both technical problems as well as programming confusion in the near future when trying to receive digital channel 36.

The recent PSIP changes that many (at least Sony users) noticed recently with channel 10 digital, were placed into effect as the first step to make Milwaukee Public Television (MPTV) into one unified concept.  The goal is when channel 36 goes digital, the PSIP information will be simulcast on both channel 10 and 36 digital.  The result will, in theory, make 10-1 into Channel 36 digital which would then allow channels 10-2 through 10-6 to become the standard definition programming from channel 10 we had previously seen on 10-1 through 10-5.

There are a lack of standards yet to be defined.  Because WDJT Channel 58 has gotten away with using 1-1, that has been interpreted to mean that anyone can do whatever they want with their channel number assignments.  It is called precedence.  Only this time we not only have the further potential for confusion in the marketplace but we now have technical limitations involved with how digital televisions receive their signals.

Here is MPTV's vision.  If you were tuned to channel 9 digital and did a "up channel" on your digital TV you would get 10-1 (ignoring analog for this discussion).  The 10-1 psip information would (in theory) tell the receiver to tune to the carrier at channel 35 which will be channel 36 digital.  Do another "up channel" and, in theory, the psip information would then tell the digital receiver to go to the carrier at channel 8, thereby giving you what is currently on 10-2.  However, it appears that there are limitations in receiver designs because receiver manufacturers had designed receivers based on the concept that the PSIP would follow a single analog counterpart and not be split between two different analog channels.  With Sony XBR receivers they will not go to carrier channel 8 once told to go to channel 35 using the same PSIP digital information.

Sony users will certainly have a problem when channel 36 goes digital because the current plan is to execute the vision as stated above.  When this was implemented on a test basis recently, Sony receivers locked up preventing further channel changing.  You couldn't even enter a different channel number.  It is a scary indication that engineering practices are taking a huge back seat to marketing.

It is my view that this will further confuse the marketplace.  Gawd help the normal user who first has to figure out that to receive channel 58 they must goto channel 1-1.  Then, potentially, would have to learn that channel 36 digital would be viewed on 10-1.  Not to mention the potential technical problems outlined above.

The intent of having stations use their analog counterpart channel assignment is to reduce the learning curve to the user and make it easy to use.  But it was also intended this way so the receiver manufacturers and the broadcaster would be in sync with how digital programming would be implemented.

Because we have a lack of PSIP standards we are being subjected to, what appears to be,  the beginning of a trend of whatever the broadcaster wants to do is ok.  This, irregardless to the long term consequences of confusion to the marketplace and technical limitations of digital television receivers whose manufactures could never have forseen what local stations might do when not held to PSIP standards.  PSIP certainly was never intended to combine two digital carriers and be simulcast.

I call on those who agree that this would be a major problem to address it with Ellis Bromberg, General Manager at channels 10 & 36 to lobby for standards we all can live with.  Otherwise chaos could become the standard.

[StarvingForHDTV]

Originally posted by ReesR
I call on those who agree that this would be a major problem to address it with Ellis Bromberg, General Manager at channels 10 & 36 to lobby for standards we all can live with.  Otherwise chaos could become the standard.

Do you have any contact information for this individual?  Email, snail mail, or phone number?

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  I will also mention my feelings about the 3 hour delay if I get in touch with Ellis.  I also feel the widescreen standard definition shows should be played instead of the loop when there is no regular HD programming on 35-1

Starving

[ReesR]

I have been calling the main number 414-271-1036.  Just ask for him by name and the operator there should connect you.  So far I have not been successful in connecting with him.  He appears to be a busy guy.

Rees

[Tom Snyder]

Make those phone calls.

But don't forget... if you send a letter, it goes into he station's public file, which gets scrutinized at license renewel time.

[ReesR]

Excellent suggestion.

I think for "round one" verbal communication should suffice.

However, I agree, if it appears they are not receptive to our plea then by all means we should then formalize it with a "round two" in formal written mode and allow it to be kept in the public file.  I am personally aware that station managements of all radio and television operations are sensitive to what goes into that file.

Today, I left a message with Ellis to have him return my call.

By the way, his direct number is 414-297-7661.

:hug:

[ReesR]

I just found out that Ellis Bromberg is out of the office until July 14th.

Rees

[ReesR]

I just added a new topic at the AVS Forum concerning this topic:

Disturbing new twist to PSIP usage in Milwaukee

It might be interesting to track comments and/or suggestions  from those around the country.

[ReesR]

Well, it appears that the ATSC standards allow what Milwaukee Public Television wants to do but do not support what Channel 58 is doing.  Here is a copy of what I wrote on the AVS Forum:

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Thanks for sharing all that information.  

Given that information I was able to find the actual PSIP A-65 standard.
The location of this standard is available on the web in pdf format at the following address:

http://www.atsc.org/standards/A65-B.pdf

You shared correct information spwace but it appears the standard does go further and allows for the exact situation described in my initial post.

In paragraph #5 in Appendix B states:

If a broadcaster owns or controls broadcast licenses for two or more different RF channels having overlapping service areas, he may use a common major_channel_number for all services on all channels. He may choose the major_channel_number as determined above for any one of the RF channels. The values in the minor_channel_number fields must be partitioned to insure that there is no duplication of the two-part channel number in the DTV service area, including the overlapping DTV service areas of other broadcasters using that same major_channel_number.

So, with your help I was able to find out the correct answer to this question.  

But it appears that Milwaukee Channel 58's use of virtual channel 1-1 is not according to the standard.  Does everyone believe that to be true?

The standard says in paragraph 8 of A-65 Appendix B:

The provisions listed above assign major_channel_number values 2 through 69 uniquely to broadcasters licensed to broadcast Digital ATSC signals and guarantee that the two-part channel number combinations used by a broadcaster will be different from those used by any other broadcaster with an overlapping DTV service area..

Can anyone tell me if there is a station in Chicago using digital 1-1?

Thanks everyone for their input on this subject.

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So, while I do not agree with the combining of the channels as Channels 10 and 36 will do, I must agree that they are well within the standards for doing so.

However, Channel 58 is not within the standards because they are not using a channel between 2 and 69.

So, there you have it.