TWC vs. Satellite

[Sparky15]

I know this has been discussed in various threads before but I'm looking for someone to lay it all on the line. Which is the better of the two?

I subscribe to D*****v but cannot see dropping $500 - $700 for a receiver and new dish. How can TWC basically just give away the HD converter? Is their programming that much less or do they figure they'll make up the cost if they keep you  a customer?

I already have a roof antenna that picks up the OTA programs but am looking for HBO, HDnet and ESPN HD.

I'd like to hear from both sides on this - should I suck it up and get the HD receiver or switch to TWC??

[RickNeff]

TWC doesn't "give away" the box -- You rent it, including the remote control in addition to the cable service.  So, in the long run you actually end up paying more than buying the product outright.

Now why they don't charge more for the box, I can't answer.  I'm rather surprised they don't actually, but since I have TWC, I'm not complaining!

As far as programming, neither Dish, DirectTV or TWC has everything I want: all HD locals, HDNet & DiscoveryHD. Until one eventually falls out as dramatically offering more than another, I'm staying with the short-term cheapest (yet long-term more expensive) solution.  But, that's just my little opinion.

[AndrewP]

TW do not charge extra for HD box because what you get from this box, well, is bad (trying to avoid what I wanted actually to say).

Andrew

[Talos4]

Setting aside content and PQ issues:bang:

I have been a subscriber to SAT for approximately 7 years.

I went that route almost for purely financial considerations.  I was having a real problem justifying the cost of both programing and renting equipment each month.

Doing a long term forecast of costs I realized that in 2 years my initial investment for SAT equipment was paid off and the equipment was mine.  

Of course along with Owning the gear it was my responsibility for repairs/replacement.   However, across 7 years I have yet to have a problem with my original equipment.  In that time I have upgraded to a 2nd and 3rd STB and dish/lnb's at what I consider a modest investment.

Next comes my investment on HDTV gear. ( sooner than later)   again, I feel my money is better invested in my own equipment.

[borghe]

You pay TWC roughly $6-7/month for each box and remote. You pay DirecTV $5/month for each box AFTER your first box. Basically TWC gets at least $80/year out of you that DirecTV doesn't charge. Programming is cheaper on DirecTV also, especially if you go the OTA route. I could drop my locals completely right now from DirecTV asving me like $4 or $6 per month, but I'll wait for an HD DirecTivo first (have become to used to Tivoing locals).

As for your initial HD cost, don't look at what TWC is giving you for "nothing". Look at what they aren't giving you: HDNet, HD pay per view, and single box for all of your HD.

But you want me to lay it on the line. Ok, here it is. As far as initial out of pocket costs, cable is cheaper. But as a better medium term investment, satellite is cheaper. You will make your money back on satellite in 2-3 years. After that (as it is for all of us long time sat subs) it is pure savings.

[gyoung]

My theory on the TWC HD boxes is that they aren't charging until there is a large penetration of the HD boxes into subscriber homes.  Once they have a large consumer pool using these you'll probably start seeing a surcharge on the bill for getting a HD converter box versus a regular digital cable box.

Then again I could be wrong.

[Gregg Lengling]

There are a number of factors:

TWC:  lower operational costs....they don't have the satellites to maintain and launch.  Fiber and Coax usually doesn't blow up on launch.
Less programming on their roster.....
Buying boxes by the 100,000 or more makes the box cost less than $100.00 so when you figure they charge you rental on the box....they have a payback very quick.
Installation is usually easier and doesn't require a clear view of the sky

Directv:  All digital, including the basic channels (not true with TWC).  More movie choices on pay-per-view.  If you figure out the cost of Directv vs TWC and amoritize the costs.....it doesn't take long to get your investment back...especially if you have a combined Directv/STB in one box.  With TWC you pay for the box for life.  Directv doesn't compress HD signals further than the orginal broadcast of 1080i programs....can TWC say that with the 256QAM modulation scheme.  Plus the basic channels and locals are pure digital...no ghosting, no lower tier type picture.

Easiest comparision:  TWC VS Directv as channel 58 simulcasting vs. 4 or 6 pure full bandwidth HD.

[borghe]

gyoung - actually my belief is that as boxes like the SA Explorer4100HD become cheaper to manufacture and buy, TWC and other MSOs will just begin sending these boxes out for all customers. It is much easier to use one box for all customers, and the 4100HD and presumably future boxes are capable of downconverting the HD signal to a 480i signal meaning all users will have access to HD channels. This further allows TWC to get rid of analog locals, SD feeds of HD channels such as HBO, Cinemax, and Showtime, etc. Now I'm not saying they still won't charge more for that, but they will eventually converge down to one box even if the customer has an NTSC television.

[sp44again]

Originally posted by borghe
You will make your money back on satellite in 2-3 years.  

Then in 2-3 years you'll want something new and better and then fork over that money. It's a never ending pit called technology!

[gyoung]

actually my belief is that as boxes like the SA Explorer4100HD become cheaper to manufacture and buy, TWC and other MSOs will just begin sending these boxes out for all customers.

That makes sense.  I actually thought about that also just after I posted.

[borghe]

sp44again - however, at least it is your choice to upgrade and what to upgrade to. TWC doesn't give you a choice. Upgrading too fast? Too bad. Not upgrading fast enough? Too bad. Don't like the features of the nwe box? Too bad. You are on their time schedule using the hardware they pickwed out.

Also, as far as upgrading satellite it hasn't at all been often for me. I first got satellite back in '97 (or was it '98).. I bought my initial receiver. In '99 I upgraded that receiver to a Dolby Digital receiver, but that was completely my choice and most would argue unnecessary (especially considering all they had at the time was Starz, a few PPV channels, and the Dolby trailer demo channel). So that was my choice to upgrade. I then upgraded that box to a Tivo in '01, another choice of mine. I bought another Tivo for the bedroom, so not an upgrade. I then added my HD Hughes box to the living room, not an upgrade. But the point is that I could very well still be using my initial RCA box if I wanted to. The choice to upgrade from that box as much as I have has been completely my choice.

Not saying you are saying DirecTV requires lots of upgrades, just clarifying for those reading this and who are still unsure. With DirecTV you can presumably by an HD box right now and never have to upgrade again for the forseeable future. If you do decide to upgrade, you have control over what features come in the box you want. With TWC the box you get today could literally be replaced tomorrow, and you don't have a choice. It could have a worse program guide, it could be missing outputs, etc. You are stuck with what they give you.

[Talos4]

If you do decide to upgrade, you have control over what features come in the box you want. With TWC the box you get today could literally be replaced tomorrow, and you don't have a choice. It could have a worse program guide, it could be missing outputs, etc. You are stuck with what they give you.

While a TWC subscriber,  I was never informed of an upgrade in equipment.  When I had a problem and TWC did manage to get a tech to my home, the tech would invariably say, "Boy that's an old box" let give you a newer model".

With DTV all I have to do is walk into the local Big box or browse the web and I can find the latest and greatest in new STB's, LNB's etc.

And make MY choice whether or not to spend the money to upgrade.  One of my boxes is my original hughes, works great.

But, at least I know there's new technology available if I choose to lay down my hard earned cash.

[BrettD]

I agree that TWC is the more expensive proposition. I especially agree with Talos4, who "stumbled" upon the fact that an upgraded decoder box was/is available only through the casual observance of the repair tech., just like I was! That put me ove rhte edge; that and the fact that TWC has/ had poor customer service and also expected ME to drop by THEIR facility to upgrade the equipment I was paying (for 10 plus yrs.) to rent!
So, over to Dishnetwork I went, paying only for the year-long programming, then the receiver was mine! Basically $42.00 a month for programming and purchase of the dish and box.
If economics are an issue, since I don't go out to movies, etc., then I can personally justify $499 for a HD STB. But I am NOT committed to any DSB by virtue of the equipment I use to provide entertainment to me and my family. It all boils down to personal judgement and tastes! I am interested in HDNet and DiscoveryHD, but NOT that much!;)

[sp44again]

Originally posted by borghe
sp44again - however, at least it is your choice to upgrade and what to upgrade to. TWC doesn't give you a choice. Upgrading too fast? Too bad. Not upgrading fast enough? Too bad. Don't like the features of the nwe box? Too bad. You are on their time schedule using the hardware they pickwed out.

Also, as far as upgrading satellite it hasn't at all been often for me. I first got satellite back in '97 (or was it '98).. I bought my initial receiver. In '99 I upgraded that receiver to a Dolby Digital receiver, but that was completely my choice and most would argue unnecessary (especially considering all they had at the time was Starz, a few PPV channels, and the Dolby trailer demo channel). So that was my choice to upgrade. I then upgraded that box to a Tivo in '01, another choice of mine. I bought another Tivo for the bedroom, so not an upgrade. I then added my HD Hughes box to the living room, not an upgrade. But the point is that I could very well still be using my initial RCA box if I wanted to. The choice to upgrade from that box as much as I have has been completely my choice.

Not saying you are saying DirecTV requires lots of upgrades, just clarifying for those reading this and who are still unsure. With DirecTV you can presumably by an HD box right now and never have to upgrade again for the forseeable future. If you do decide to upgrade, you have control over what features come in the box you want. With TWC the box you get today could literally be replaced tomorrow, and you don't have a choice. It could have a worse program guide, it could be missing outputs, etc. You are stuck with what they give you.

I don't care what you say it's a money pit. I've had dish for 5 years so I know all about it. I went through 5 different receivers. I bought a Sony HD-100 and didn't like that. I had a baking rack with wings for an antenna above the TV. Since I don't have an attic to put an antenna and don't feel like putting something on the roof I got rid of it and got TWC. I don't care if the TWC box doesn't get better cause the Directv boxes never got better either. They got slower if anything. I think people upgrade all the time when it comes to Directv boxes. They think anything new has to be better than what they have. I always see posts on Avsforum about problems with Directv STB's, HD or not. So you can't tell me that TWC and Scientific Atlantic have more problems than Directv boxes. You can pick the box you want with Directv but you still don't know everything til you have it at home. As far as I can see it seems that TWC is keeping up with technology. Green Bay has PVR's already. I'm not saying I will never go back to Directv but so far I'm happy with TWC. I've had no problems, knock on wood. The only complaint I have is that 58 and them can't settle.

[borghe]

I disagree that TWC keeps on top of things, and you can't use Green Bay as an example. Green Bay is a national test market for TWC. They had video ondemand in test since 2001 even though Milwaukee area didn't get it until well after a year later.

As far as quality of the receiver goes, any basic receiver you buy for DirecTV will be as fast as the SA 3100 or 2000 (SD versions). A friend just went to DirecTV from cable, paid $99 for his Dolby Digital receiver, an investment that will be paid off in a little over a year. Aside from DirecTivo, DirecTV receivers are no slower than either of the SA boxes that TWC has deployed right now. Now this is just my opinion, but I have used a few recent DirecTV boxes often as well as both models of TWC boxes each time I go to various in-laws.

As for the quality of HD boxes.. I am sorry for the problems you had with your Sony. Yes I know there were problems with it. But as far as I know, most problems are now fixed as long as you let the receiver upgrade firmware. However the exact same thing can be said about the SA boxes. You are happy with you SA 3100HD? Good, because there are many people out there who had to suffer through the 2000HD and quite a while with the 3100HD before that was finally upgraded to a decent state. If you go through those same avsforums you will see an outrageous number of complaints with both boxes. The only final solution to the 2000HD was to replace the box with a 3100HD, and the only solution early on with the 3100HD was to upgrade the firmware until it became useable. Need I remind you though that there are still many people who are upset with the horrible quality of the analog stations on the box, unwatchable on the component outputs. Something that DirecTV boxes don't have to worry about.

And again, as for your choice to upgrade, it was your choice. If you did have problems or things you didn't like with the 3100HD, guess what? You're stuck with it. With DirecTV the choice is always yours. I have a Hughes E86 right now that is going on two years old (though I've only had it for 6 months). Even though there are newer boxes out there right now, I have no need to upgrade.

I am not saying DirecTV is perfect, but all of your complaints about their receivers can clearly be used against TWC's receivers also. Both were buggy HD systems when they were first deployed and both are relatively stable HD systems now. You just made the choice to dump DirecTV right before the problems were solved. Coincidentally most of Scientific Atlanta's problems were solved at the same time. You didn't get a better box, you just switched right at the transition point. If you were to come back to DirecTV now using any of last years HD boxes you would have a box just as stable as the TWC box. Only you wouldn't be comlaining about not seeing CBS58.